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Alpha Females: Jacqueline Kennedy vs. Marilyn Monroe

October 24, 2009

Before I start, let me clarify a couple of things:

1. An Alpha Female is a woman who can get the commitment of a quality man.

2. GirlGame is the art and science of how a woman can get the commitment of a quality man.

Fellow Blogerettes and Commenters, please help refine these working definitions as you see fit!

Let’s look at two women who were active around the same period in time, both of whom seem to have had their pick of men to obtain commitment from.

Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis: the unlikely Alpha Female

This is what Jackie likely looked like when she met JFK. She wasn't a perfect 10. credit: http://jenniepperson.blogspot.com/

To this day, Jackie O. endures as an icon.  She was able to obtain the commitment of multiple high-status and quality men, including John F. Kennedy, one of the most popular US presidents of all time.

If you look at Jacqueline, what would you rate her in terms of beauty?  A 6? A 7?  Maybe an 8? How did a woman who looks merely above average score high-status males?

John F. Kennedy was a young senator on the rise in Washington, DC when he married Jackie Kennedy.  He was also a notorious playboy, something which continued after marriage as well (in fact, Marilyn Monroe was one of his conquests).

JFK had his pick of society women.  I’m sure some of those women were homely, and some were beautiful. If he had wanted, he could have picked a woman who was both beautiful and who had all the qualities suitable for a politician’s wife.

Jackie O. didn’t have a squeaky clean past. Her father was a womanizer and alcoholic, her mother remarried a much-older divorcee, and her family had financial troubles.  But being in the society and having money (even on credit) was enough to expose her to many eligible bachelors.

Jackie O., classy playette, was first engaged to a “dentist from New Jersey”, whom she later left for JFK — she held out for the big one, it would seem.

To this day, Jackie O. is probably the most popular First Lady of all time.  Even before the tragedy of her husband’s assassination, people around the world were charmed by her.

How did this just-above-average-looking woman do it?

  • Her dress sense and grooming were immaculate.  Her clothes fit just right, they were the right colors and fabrics, her hair was perfectly coiffed to show off her features, and she had just the lightest touch of make-up to play up her features.  As a result, she looked the best she could possibly look.  Her unique look and her always being a step ahead of everyone else, fashion-wise, made her seem like a greater beauty than she really was.
  • She had class and grace.  This gave her aura that made her seem almost regal.
  • She was incredibly feminine.  If you listen to her speak as First Lady, she had a very soft baby voice.  Her mannerisms were as feminine as her clothing.
  • She was mysterious.  This contributed further to her aura of being almost ethereal.  This partially elevated her status by making her seem like she really was better than everyone else.
  • She had good GirlGame.  When news of her husband’s affairs went around, she was photographed with other men fawning all over her; she would indulge her husband in “quickies” during the work day; she was always working on looking great while being a charming wife and mother.

There are numerous books about Jackie O. out there that detail how to follow her approach to marriage, style, and life in general. Those are far more exhaustive than my little post here, but I particularly enjoyed What Would Jackie Do, along with the numerous biographies on her life.

I think it’s interesting to study at her as a woman who, while she had the potential to just be another cute face, did everything possible to maximize her attractiveness and successfully snagged some very high status men. Reading about her, it is clear that her mother and sister were social climbers, as she was.  She just did a really good job of doing it in a way where it wasn’t obvious.  And she was successful.

Aristotle Onassis left his wife for her, and put aside his longtime lover Maria Callas too (he kept an affair with Maria after marriage, however).  Jackie ended up divorcing Ari, despite his having affairs on the side which some Alphas say would keep a woman feeling tingly toward a man.

Up until she died she had no problems finding admirers, even as a very old woman.

Interestingly, she and JFK produced a legendary Alpha Man:  John F. Kennedy, Jr.  This guy was the living definition of most eligible bachelor.  His mere presence was enough to make women melt. I remember seeing him on TV as a little kid thinking he was super, duper cute and developing an instant crush.  He went out women in Hollywood, women in college, women in society, random women, you name it.   He then married a woman who wasn’t that much younger than or or seemingly exceptional, Carolyn Bessette. But Carolyn seems to have been quite the little playette, according to model Michael Bergin,whom she dated and supposedly even had a “friends with benefits” thing with.  I wonder why an “Alpha Male” like JFK Jr. settled down so early, since he was working in journalism and didn’t need a proper wife anyway.  Why didn’t he just wait  longer to get married, and enjoy his bachelorhood some more?  Was her GirlGame that good?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Marilyn Monroe: the sexy Alpha Female with issues

Marilyn Monroe is iconic as a total sexpot.  She oozed sexiness and sensuality, had movie star looks, a banging body and babydoll face with bedroom eyes.  She looked beautiful and really knew how to work it with how she moved her body, dressed, spoke, and emoted.

She was type of woman who made the sidewalk sizzle as she walked on it.  Who did she get to marry her?  A parade of men:

1. James Dougherty:  she married him probably for convenience at that time so she’d have a home.  She divorced him when she was ready to move on to the big time.

2. Joe Dimaggio, baseball legend: this guy was the like Tom Brady or Brett Favre of the old days.  He was a divorced man who women everywhere loved, so he had lots of options.  However, he left all of these options behind to marry Marilyn.  He was dominant, and would often yell at her, so he seems to qualify as Alpha.  But Marilyn divorced him citing mental cruelty.  He was an Alpha from his fame and money, but perhaps he didn’t have the personality and techniques to tame Marilyn.

3. Playwright Arthur Miller, who left his wife for her.  Marilyn was filled with angst about being taking seriously as an actress, so she married this nerdy, intellectual playwright.  Eventually they divorced.  Arthur Miller had no problem marrying someone else after her, so he may have been Alpha as well.

Marilyn slept around a lot and used her body to her benefit.  If you look at her face, I’d say she’s at least an 8 or 9.  Sure, she wore a lot of make-up and dyed her hair, but she was quite lovely even before she hit it big.

However, she had mental issues — she was troubled.  Despite being such an Alpha Female she seemed to settle for being just a little affair to JFK, although she really wanted more:

…Monroe was in love with President Kennedy and wanted to marry him in the early 1960s, that she called the White House frequently, and that when the married President had to break off their affair, Monroe became even more depressed, and then turned to Robert Kennedy…

Uh oh, sounds like she found an Alpha who was unattainable…but was willing to settle for his brother.  Really, were there no Alpha men associated with Hollywood back then who could win her away from JFK? No one else impressed her that much?

Was her GirlGame only good for the short-term but not the long-term?

Are both of these women Alpha Females? Is one more alpha than the other? It’s easy to claim any of the men above are not Alpha Males at all, but is that really true? So who was gaming whom?

64 Comments leave one →
  1. October 24, 2009 10:54 am

    A beautiful woman, landing any man she wanted and being intensely sexual, kills herself.

    A cute woman, staying respectably faithfully in her relationships and not outwardly sexual, lives to be an old woman.

    The difference between the madonna and the whore?

  2. Tupac Chopra permalink
    October 24, 2009 11:06 am

    Neither woman could hold a candle to Alias Clio.

  3. Tupac Chopra permalink
    October 24, 2009 11:07 am

    Bhetti –

    Only the good die young.

  4. lovelysexybeauty permalink
    October 24, 2009 11:22 am

    Bhetti – You remind me of a point that I’ve been thinking over a lot lately.

    A woman is certainly attracted to a man who makes her feel tingly. Traits like being dominant and exciting are associated with Alpha guys. Women are hypergamous, for sure.

    However, if a man takes a woman on an emotional roller coaster again and again, it’s going to wear her out. In most cases, for her sanity, she will walk away.

    Experiences where a woman has her heart crushed, or almost crushed, will change how she thinks. It will even change how tingly she is able to get for a man. Her heart, mind and “special place” :-) will all need to align for her to feel like a guy is right for her. He needs to be a mix of Alpha and Beta qualities, for the long-term.

    Even Silvio Berlusconi’s wife filed for divorce, no? Her pride was hurt, and I’m sure she went through lots of mental anguish as well.

  5. lovelysexybeauty permalink
    October 24, 2009 11:27 am

    By the way, it doesn’t have to be a man taking a woman on an emotional roller coaster. She can put herself through one by going for men who won’t treat her right, again and again.

    She’ll only be happy when she gets “hits” of the drug he provides: moments where she gets a dose of of his Alpha power. It’s more like an addiction relationship then.

    For this reason, women *do* need to think with their minds, and not only their hearts or “special places.” Even though this idea seems to frighten men and make them think it’s game-playing (*hm… Tupac *cough cough* :-) heehee).

  6. gunslingergregi permalink
    October 24, 2009 11:48 am

    Or maybe sometimes love cuts through all the bullshit.

    [LSB: For real! I don't get how so many people can ignore that. If they've never felt that bond with someone, or felt it and lost it so they hate it, that's too bad.]

  7. October 24, 2009 12:14 pm

    Bhetti –

    Only the good die young.

    I don’t know what you mean :(

  8. October 24, 2009 12:19 pm

    LSB: It’s also a chicken and egg thing. Does being mentally unstable cause a woman’s sluttery or does sluttery cause her to be mentally unstable? I submit that — as with most chicken and egg issues — each worsens the other.

    Which women do not walk away? Which are so helplessly addicted and have no self-control for something that is not ultimately good for them?

    I bet that if there was a study of number of sexual partners for a woman versus incidence of self-harm, it would be a positive correlation.

    [LSB: Ah, so that was what you were bringing up (I think I misread into it initially hehe). :-) Living in the pursuit of quick thrills, by being slutty and chasing those quick highs from hitting the big O or whatever, probably does reinforce the feedback loop. I guess it's like what they say about alcoholism, gambling and other addictions. Some people are just more susceptible to developing some addictions. If their environment prevents or discourages them from engaging in the that behavior, they may go their entire lives without ever having a problem with those things.]

  9. October 24, 2009 1:29 pm

    Doug’s post touches upon a crucial reason why certain “alpha” men will not marry certain very beautiful women — class.

    Marilyn Monroe was born in California and spent much of her childhood in foster homes. Although in adulthood she was mingling with the upper class, her background and demeanor were likely more of the lower to middle class type. Thus she had mass appeal as an actress and sex symbol, but not the wifely appeal to an upper class man.

    On the subject of foster homes. My ex-husband’s mother also lived with foster parents, and was later adopted into a family that was rich but highly dysfunctional. Although she was reputedly beautiful in her youth, she had poor self-control. She smoked, drank, used drugs such as crack cocaine, and also slept around a lot. All this, despite the fact that she was adopted by a family with a lot of money.

    Although I thought ex-husband was more aspiring to be middle class, as it turned out he preferred to remain low class. He drank, had a drug habit, and picked fights with his coworkers. He also hated anyone who was too middle or upper class, and refused to dress or act in a manner that “betrayed his people.” He did not like to save money, had a terrible work ethic, and was extremely antagonistic towards anyone who seemed “better off.”

    Class matters quite a bit for harmonious marriages. The upper social circles particularly pay attention to class. Jacqueline was born in Southampton and a socialite. Her family’s status was upper class, and she liked to ride horses, play lacrosse, read and draw. These are hobbies that define her class as distinctively upper crust or at least upper part of middle. John F. Kennedy’s family was from Boston, and he went to Harvard, while Jackie went to Vassar and George Washington University. They had much more in common background wise.

    The upper upper class of American society are in essence American royalty. For most of the last century it had been very difficult for “new money” or those who did not have the proper background to break into that. Marriages were often more about a social status co-joining than true love. For most of the early 1900s, the real wealth was concentrated on the east coast. Things are different now with the extreme new wealth coming from Hollywood and Silicon Valley.

    Most of the “old money” still date within the same circles. JFK Jr. dated many women from Brown, and married Carolyn who went to Boston University. Thus again they have similar backgrounds. Though the traditional Ivies are all on the east coast, with the rise in prominence of the west, Stanford and Berkeley are basically on par.

    I went to schools that drew children from upper middle class families despite the fact that my own family was rather poor. Those families all had aspirations of being upper class, and many of my high school classmates went to Ivy League universities on the east coast like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Brown, etc. As for me, I never pursued the upper class kind of men, which very much disappointed my mother. I did not have the urge to be high status or find a man with a lot of material wealth. I had enough of the “class commonalities” to attract men with money and connections, since I could talk to them on the same intellectual level and was emotionally in tune and feminine. A few of them really pursued me, but I did not reciprocate as there was no love.

    Partially this is because I saw what it did to my mother to marry my father who has a lot of drive to make money, but in order to satisfy his greed and lust, did a lot of terrible things. He is a solidly upper middle class doctor in Pennsylvania and cheated on my mother and his second wife repeatedly. When you get up to a certain level the men will have such a sense of “power” that they feel like they can do anything they want. I’d rather have a good solid middle class family with lots of love and caring.

    [LSB: It's interesting to hear you bring about the idea of class and social status. In the Roissysphere some people seem to emphasize again and again that a man is only Alpha according to how many women he can attract. And that is the only aim in life.

    Interesting point about how things are with "old vs. new money." I found it interesting to see who the founders of Google married. Page seriously scored by marrying probably one of the most beautiful doctoral students in the top tier (she's at Stanford). Brin married a Yale graduate who founded a start-up. There were some articles about the wives of billionaires I recall reading a while ago about all of this.

    With new money,it was also interesting to see who Larry Ellison, the founder of Oracle, married. This guy was a legendary womanizer. I'm surprised he married at all. Yet he did, to a girl who probably posed an interesting challenge even to him (she was engaged to guy from her hometown who she only left after she got what she wanted from Ellison, she was pretty unimpressed by him and not into businessmen, etc.). She's a romance novelist, hm...

    Also, I found it interesting that JFK, Jr. had a pretty long-term and serious relationship with actress Darryl Hannah. A quick look at her Wikipedia page didn't make it clear to me if she came from a similar class background, but I found it interesting to think about.]

  10. Tupac Chopra permalink
    October 24, 2009 2:08 pm

    Hope:

    Marriages were often more about a social status co-joining than true love.

    Which is what would happen if LSB’s plan to ignore gina tingles were to ever come to fruition: empty social climbing and status whoring.

    I mean really, does anyone think that a woman who has “transcended her animal nature” will go on to make judgements in any truly evolved way? Or, as is most likely, will she merely replace gina tingles with craven materialism and consumerism?

    So much for the talk of “soulmates”, “compatibility” and “mutuality of values” they often go on about.

    [LSB: Huh whatcha sayy???

    I don't have s*xual experience, my religious and spiritual beliefs tell me to practice self-restraint in thoughts as well.

    All I can go on is how good I feel around the person, and if I get that feeling of having to control myself (because all guys will try, even religious ones).

    How do you think Mormons decide who gives them tingles? What about practicing Catholics, Muslims, and Hindus? If none of these groups can have s*x before marriage, and must practice restraint of sexual thought, how can they know?

    They probably judge it like I do: Do I like how it feels to be around the other person, noticing how they breathe, smell, and touch?

    I said very clearly in my comment one must make sure that heart (emotional), mind (mental), and "special place" (pure attraction) all agree about that person. Not just "special place," which is what you seem to be implying?

    Please think beyond just the mainstream western view!! A relationship just based on lust will not last. In some cases, it's impossible to even compare.]

  11. October 24, 2009 2:26 pm

    Tupac: No, don’t ignore the tingles! He must give you the tingles. He musn’t be the man who gives you the most tingles especially from initial impressions, but you must feel tingly. He must meet the tingle threshold.

    More on this post since I feel like I’m restating:

    http://girlgame.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/do-settle/

    [LSB: Tingle threshold, that's a great way to look at it.

    But how does one know what that is? When I meet a guy, all I might notice is whether I thnk he's kinda cute and gives off a good vibe, or gives off a weirdo and gross vibe. A guy with a pretty face that I haven't spoken to is just a pretty face. I need to at least talk to him and see how he acts, to see if I might be interested.

    I don't consciously think about whether I want to get physical with a guy when I first meet him. Maybe I should think about it, but again that puts me in a moral dilemma. And I'm cool with how things are going for me right now so I don't necessarily feel the need to change how I evaluate a prospect.

    OK last time I change my response to this comment... for long-term tingles, again how do you know? All I go by is some general sense of attraction, feeling good, liking how the other person looks and moves, not wanting to even look at other guys, etc. Who is so yogically self-aware to be able to judge their own tingles?]

  12. October 24, 2009 2:53 pm

    I’m not very good at identifying where a woman sits on the beauty scale apparently because I believe Jackie Kennedy to be a solid 8, maybe edging into 9 in the top picture. If she’s a 6, I’m a 4 – depressing.

  13. aoefe permalink
    October 24, 2009 2:59 pm

    I’m waaaay to selfish too settle for anyone who doesn’t give me tingles. I could have married a well-to-do man who loved me but I could not find attraction for him inspite of great effort. Plus I figure I was kind to him by not continuing the relationship, how unfair would it have been to him to have been happy with the material wealth and yet secretly wishing he were a different kind of man.

  14. Dreamer permalink
    October 24, 2009 3:26 pm

    I don’t see Marilyn Monroe as an alpha female, and certainly not worthy as an example of solid “female game.”

    Aoefe- Jackie O has to at least be a 9. She’s an icon for feminine beauty.

    [LSB: Any suggestions on a better way to define Alpha Female? I and I think most of the other blogerettes have defined Alpha Female as a woman who can get the commitment of quality men. Or do you think Marilyn's husbands weren't of quality? By Roissy's definition, 90% of a female's s*xual status is based on her looks (not that I wholly agree with that but we can accept it for now). Would you rate Marilyn lower than Jackie?]

  15. October 24, 2009 3:38 pm

    LSB: “Also, I found it interesting that JFK, Jr. had a pretty long-term and serious relationship with actress Darryl Hannah. A quick look at her Wikipedia page didn’t make it clear to me if she came from a similar class background, but I found it interesting to think about.]”

    Upper class men rarely marry actresses or models. This does happen sometimes, but it is an exception. Well, I’m not sure about America, but in Europe this is the “rule”; actresses and models are considered “lower class” bimbos no matter their upbringing. Good example is crown prince of Spain who had long relationship with Norwegian (if I remember country right) model but who had to abandon her because royal family would not have accepted her. Instead he married classy upper class news anchor.

    It maybe different for “new money”, though, I’m not so sure about that. I mean, Paul McCartney, for example, did marry a model.

    [LSB: I remember this about Prince Felipe! I got the feeling that the Spanish people also didn't like that the Norwegian model was a foreigner as well. This may have been before the recent surge in European unity. I think Spain having come out of isolation from the rest of Europe during the Franco years made the culture especially old-fashioned (I was shocked to see in some Spanish movies from the early 2000s, that men would say to each other stuff like, "Control your woman or I'll control her for you.").

    "Divorcee" Letizia, who Felipe married, came into the picture at the right time, when Spain was trying to become more progressive like the rest of Europe. I'm sure having a popular and charming news anchor as wife also was appealing too, as a way for the Spanish royal family cement their position (in Spain there's a lot of regionalism).

    I could misinterpretingn the above, but regardless... Quite an interesting story playing out over there!]

  16. October 24, 2009 3:39 pm

    LSB: That’s an interesting idea. How do you know, without actually doing anything physical.

    Well, you know, because you think about him that way. Unwillingly. A lot. Maybe at inappropriate moments. Because you hear his voice and you feel tingly, extra-sensitive. And that feeling gets worse.

    And also, I think, you should be very comfortable, impatient and excited at the idea of exploring sexually with him. Get the wedding date speeded up, guys, kind of excited.

    But, anyway, I’m counting on others who have a little more experience to say how pre-sexual exploration versus actual sexual experience match up.

  17. aoefe permalink
    October 24, 2009 3:42 pm

    Urban Dictionary definition of Alpha Female:

    An Alpha Female is a dominant female in a group. She dates as many males as she wants, is strong and confident, and a hard worker as well as often busy. She is usually sarcastic because she’s powerful and playful. Alpha Females are intelligent, intellectual problem solvers; and though being an alpha female is more of a state of mind than a physicality, an alpha understands that dressing up or sexy increases her power in society, so she does it. Alpha Females are often terribly misunderstood by Beta and lesser males, as evident by the other posts about Alpha Females, and when this happens, she’s called a bitch, a cunt, or a whore … Alpha Females prefer passion over romance, although if it’s romance coming from an Alpha Male, a hootttttt one, that’s another story…

    John liked Katie. Katie liked John. At the party, John asked Katie to sit on his lap, she smiled and sat next to him instead because she wanted to be equal and not objectified. John realized she was an alpha female.

    [LSB: Hm....!]

  18. October 24, 2009 3:51 pm

    There seem to be two sides to the alpha female coin — her alphahood in relation to males, and to females. With regards to men, an alpha fmale is, like you said, one that can obtain commitment from highest quality males.

    In relation to her fellow females, an alpha female is the one that walks with her tail raised high while the beta females, even when prettier and younger, subdue their sexual signaling when quality males are around, in deference to her. Meanwhile, she is free to be sexy and smouldering and seductive around those males, so they notice and respond to her, not so much to her intimidated girlfriends.

    Of course, this alpha female must also be very good looking, otherwise she’s a chaperpone or a mother hen.

  19. Il Capo permalink
    October 24, 2009 3:56 pm

    These examples are flawed for one simple reason: this women were cheated on. Their Alphas did not commit to them.

    Jackie O was a useful prop in JFK’s political career. He could not have been president and single and she had the right image, connections and social skills. Aristotle needed an extra push into high society. She provided that. He cheated on her with both men and women.

    Marylin: married lesser alpha (or provider beta), moved on to abusive husband (not really a quality guy), married another Alpha for practical reasons but could not get the one guy she liked to commit.

    Carolyn: I do not know her story.

  20. Il Capo permalink
    October 24, 2009 4:02 pm

    What about practicing Catholics…

    We Catholics have the benefit of repentance. We just do it and then confess.

  21. October 24, 2009 4:09 pm

    Il Capo: When a man is of JFK proportions, you expect him to cheat on you implicitly. You expect him to be discreet about it. You’re still the woman he’s chosen for you to be, by his side. So, a tad arguable. Lack of commitment is if he actually leaves you, which can — arguably, yes — be in spirit not necessarily publicly. We can’t tell if he ‘left’ her and/or neglected her that way so that she didn’t feel like she was married to him.

    I won’t argue much on the Monroe front, I suppose, but those are still high status men who married her.

  22. October 24, 2009 4:10 pm

    Yes but Il Capo are you truly contrite during your confession? Contrition is an extraordinary way of removing the guilt of mortal sin either with or without confession, of course the intention of confession is supposed to be there according to Catholocism. I don’t think you’re absolved by God when you simply follow the duty of confession without contrition. No?

  23. October 24, 2009 4:12 pm

    Bhetti is right, there is somewhat of an expectation by a wife that a man of that status would cheat – however an Alpha Female would expect her Alpha to keep her as his main priority and not shame her.

  24. October 24, 2009 4:20 pm

    Alpha male = dominant male. Sometimes this means sexually dominant, and sometimes it means they dominate some non sexual field.
    alpha female = dominant female. When you put a group of girls together, they tend to get sycnhed periods. The female whose period determines when the other females have their periods is the alpha female.

  25. Il Capo permalink
    October 24, 2009 4:24 pm

    aoefe: no, I’m not contrite and I haven’t confessed in many years. My comment was based on Catholic girls.

    I do know that young girls who go further than they would have wanted with their boyfriends (eg.: me several years ago) can be contrite after the act and during confession. They are usually less likely to indulge in short flings if they are seriously religious and will usually demand some kind of long-term commitment (engagement or long-term relationship), but they won’t necessarily wait until wedding night.

  26. Il Capo permalink
    October 24, 2009 4:28 pm

    Bhetti:
    …you expect him to cheat on you implicitly…

    I thought you girls defined commitment as the guy staying faithful. I guess that for Alphas of JFK caliber you girls are willing to bend the rules, huh?

  27. October 24, 2009 4:44 pm

    I have never maintained that a man would stay faithful; I believe a man is capable of compartmentalizing sex and love and women are not. I recognize a man may find it very difficult to be monogamous and could see myself accommodating his need for extra curricular sex. This is a mine field discussion I realize.

  28. October 24, 2009 4:44 pm

    Il Capo: no generalisation. That’s what I individually said and what some women but not all, accept as commitment in their high status other half. Others feel obligated to depart post-haste upon discovery (possibly public) of an affair as even Berlusconi’s wifey is supposedly doing.

    There is probably an element of individually defining what commitment is. To me, it isn’t necessarily faithfulness. I’ve already got a post that will expand on this. To most women, you’re right, commitment is defined as faithfulness as well.

  29. October 24, 2009 5:04 pm

    “Marilyn Monroe is classic proof that you can be a sexy vamp without being hot at all in the face.”

    Boyfriend thinks Marilyn is, depending on the picture, as low as a 4 (high as an 8).

  30. October 24, 2009 5:06 pm

    LSB: I’m not so sure it’s only about Spain’s isolation. After all, Spain has been member of EU from the year 1986. Sure they are a bit conservative people, but Southern Europe is overall more conservative than Northern Europe. And yet, not even members of Scandinavian royal houses have married actresses or models.There has been some relaxation but it’s not towards models but rather permission to marry outside of nobility. Still, those women that royal men end up marrying, are mostly sophisticated upper class women: Princess Mary of Denmark, ex-Princess Alexandra of Denmark, Queen Silvia of Sweden etc. I would say that biggest exception to this rule is princess Mette-Marit of Norway who is more of a lower class gal and not only she had a bit suspicious past for a princess but she ALSO had a son from previous marriage. Yes, royals can marry divorcees now even in England, but they almost never do if lady in question already has kids (this of course apply only to young people).

    Also I suspect that being a foreigner wasn’t biggest flaw of that Norwegian model. After all, it has been a very common custom for royal people to marry foreigners. After all, Felipe’s mother, queen Sophia, is foreigner by birth (Greek).

    [LSB: I guess I meant non-royal foreigners, but I see your point about the bigger step involving marrying a commoner. The Dutch crown prince married an Argentinian (who seems fully European) and a member of the Danish royal house married a woman with partially Chinese ancestry; both women were from indeed well-to-do families. This is interesting to think about as well...

    A friend of mine from Spain emphasized the foreigner status of Felipe's earlier girlfriend, so I may have made the common mistake of taking the opinion of one Spaniard to indicate the entire Spanish people feel that way. :-) (This friend's mother was from elsewhere in Europe so may have had some personal bias too.)]

  31. October 24, 2009 5:09 pm

    Evidence says the menstrual synchronisation isn’t proven and the evidence problematic:

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2429/does-menstrual-synchrony-really-exist

    Also see what seems to be the latest research on the subject:
    Avoiding synchrony as a strategy of female mate choice.
    Schank, Jeffrey C. Nonlinear Dynamics Psychol Life Sci . Volume: 8, Issue: 2, Date: 2004 Apr , Pages: 147-76

    And the latest, unanswered criticism of it by same author of above:
    A multitude of errors in menstrual-synchrony research: replies to Weller and Weller (2002) and Graham (2002).
    J Comp Psychol . Volume: 116, Issue: 3, Date: 2002 Sep , Pages: 319-22

    No new research seems to have been published since then. There should be a systematic review of several studies before ever accepting menstrual synchrony as established fact, especially after the valid criticisms put forth. I’m not sure where you get the alpha female supposition from.

    EDIT: Basically, a) there is no evidence for menstrual synchrony b) why would it even make sense? All the women competing for one man’s sperm at the same time? Whoever synchronises is at a disadvantage. They would be selected out, right?

  32. October 24, 2009 5:12 pm

    Re: Aoefe

    I understand your point, but I’d never allow myself to cheat on my spouse regardless of a man’s ability to compartmentalize sex and love. When one gets married, you take an oath to forsake other partners, and both sexes must be held to account for that choice. If I feel the need to cheat on my hypothetical spouse, either I will accept that I am unable to have sex with others within in the confines of my relationship, or I will process the necessary documents needed to dissolve the marriage so I can engage with sexual liaisons with other women.

    A marriage with cheating is a failed marriage regardless of sex. If you feel the need for an open relationship, don’t get married.

  33. October 24, 2009 5:15 pm

    DA your opinion is simply a reflection of your own value system. Valid for you and maybe not valid for others.

  34. October 24, 2009 5:21 pm

    If she’s a 6, I’m a 4 – depressing.

    It may be possible that you’re better looking than her… :-)

    Mind you, my tastes lean toward the sexualized side, so somebody like Madame Kennedy may be beautiful, but not “tingle” inducing.

    Plus I figure I was kind to him by not continuing the relationship, how unfair would it have been to him to have been happy with the material wealth and yet secretly wishing he were a different kind of man.

    I’d argue that’s one of the nicest things that you’ve done which reinforces the idea of you being a quality woman.

  35. October 24, 2009 5:27 pm

    DA your opinion is simply a reflection of your own value system. Valid for you and maybe not valid for others.

    You’re right on that assessment, and my perspective on cheating is far different than yours. Maybe it’s the legacy of sitting in Catholic School for twelve years, but while I won’t argue that cheating is the worst sin possible or that it deserves the death penalty, I do have some contempt for those who cheat in their marriages. Regardless of how alpha and/or attractive one is, when one makes a commitment to a marriage, you must uphold that commitment regardless of whether somebody else makes you tingle, and this commitment is irrespective of sex. It’s not idea not simply born out of fairness, but of a desire to avoid cheapening marriage.

  36. October 24, 2009 5:35 pm

    I admit DA that in theory I feel relatively fine with the thought my man could cheat, I’m not sure how I’d feel once ensconced in the relationship. I have been cheated on before, but it was more of an emotional affair between the two and I found that very difficult. I forgave him, because he was going through a very difficult time and I pretty much understood why he did what he did. He felt worse about it than I did.

    [LSB: There's some saying about how a man cheating emotionally hurts a man more, but a woman cheating s*xually hurts a man more. I wonder if women are thought to feel more pain from emotional cheating because that threatens the "commitment bond" more? Because most women know that men tend to notice hot girls all the time, but that doesn't correlate to loving her (the way he loves us, etc.).]

  37. Tupac Chopra permalink
    October 24, 2009 5:49 pm

    There is probably an element of individually defining what commitment is. To me, it isn’t necessarily faithfulness.

    Alphas play, betas pay.

  38. October 24, 2009 5:57 pm

    I admit DA that in theory I feel relatively fine with the thought my man could cheat

    In theory, we say a lot of things. Sometimes in practice, we may do the entire opposite* even if we’ve invested heavily in our theories.

    *See David having unprotected “dominant” sex with his mistress in a car in front of her boyfriend’s house.

  39. October 24, 2009 6:28 pm

    LSBAlso, I found it interesting that JFK, Jr. had a pretty long-term and serious relationship with actress Darryl Hannah

    Jackie hate hate hated Darryl Hannah.

    [LSB: I've heard that as well. Interesting that he married Carolyn Bessette after his mother had already passed... makes one wonder what was going on there. Maybe losing his mother made him more serious about settling down, maybe it just made him freer to pick someone "good enough." I'm not sure which it was, though I'm really curious. I'm thinking that Carolyn Bessette had good GirlGame and got lucky with timing (came into the picture at the right time).Hm..]

  40. Dreamer permalink
    October 24, 2009 7:12 pm

    @aoefe
    Interesting perspective on cheating. You say emotional cheating is more difficult to deal with than just physical cheating; it seems so, but I think that when men cheat in that physical way, there is also an emotional need for validation underneath the act.

    DA, I have to agree with (and even applaud?) you.

    I understand that an “alpha” male may be expected to cheat… but isn’t the better definition of an alpha female one who can secure and inspire monogamy in her alpha male mate?

    [LSB: I've heard something similar - that men sometimes cheat because they're not getting the respect, love and admiration they need (that we all need) at home. I'm sure men find it easy to find women that they'd like to do some physical fun with outside of marriage, but they don't actually do anything out of a sense of responsibility or because it's against personal values. They look, but don't touch. When a man like this does break the marital (or whatever) vow, it probably takes a strong emotional need on top of a desire for something new/different/younger.

    I think the movie Spanglish showed this situation a bit; **SPOILER ALERT** Adam Sandler had a big crush on the hot housekeeper, but as a "good man" kept himself in check and only ran off with her when his wife's affair came out.]

  41. October 24, 2009 7:42 pm

    Alpha female seems a relatively fruitless evolution of discussion at this point. All I want to know and all that is important to this from my perspective to the monogamy discussion is which woman is the happiest she can be. The kind of relationship that ties in to this will have to be different for each woman and the subtleties of which man best matches her.

    [LSB: Total agreement. Some women will never feel OK with a man cheating, some women will be OK as long as they know all about his extramarital activities, and some women may accept it will happen but would rather not know about it at all. Accordingly some women will only be happy as long as the man seems toonly have eyes for them, some women will be happy as long as the man looks but doesn't touch others, etc.]

  42. October 24, 2009 8:37 pm

    The kind of relationship that ties in to this will have to be different for each woman and the subtleties of which man best matches her.

    Tru Dat – preach it sistah!

  43. aliasclio permalink
    October 25, 2009 12:42 am

    Marilyn Monroe seems always to have struck both the men and the women around her as a beautiful woman as well as a sexy one. Jackie Kennedy’s impact was less sexual: in the 1950s, there was a broad conviction that a woman who didn’t have big breasts couldn’t be sexy. Her beauty, too, was a little too unusual to be broadly appealing, yet I think it was there. Don’t be fooled by photos: they often don’t give an accurate idea of someone’s looks.

    What’s strangest about these two women is that if you close your eyes and listen to both, it’s very hard to tell them apart. They had very similar voices or vocal styles, though Marilyn M. drawled a bit more obviously.

    Were any of Marilyn’s husbands really alphas? She “cheated” on all of them, which is supposed to disqualify a man from being an alpha. Jackie K. wasn’t unfaithful to JFK that I ever heard, but according to stories she had to be bribed by her father-in-law into staying married to him, when his philandering got too blatant. And she did leave Onassis.

    I think I could accept a man who strayed once or twice (not that I think my fiance would do such a thing) if he did so in a momentary fit of lust – but not if he made it into a policy, so to speak. In my younger days, however, I never asked men for fidelity because I thought that was something to be reserved for engagements/marriages – not for “dating” relationships. Sigh. I never did understand modern dating mores.

    [LSB: A topic I haven't seen addressed enough is what happens when there are multiple Alphas competing for the same woman. It would be easier to point out the flaws in all of the above men and call them Beta, but then one must wonder if any man in the world could have kept either of these women happy and faithful. They were famous enough to attract the attention of a wide variety of men. I'm not sure what to think about all this.

    About fidelity, what changed your mind about looking at it as something before engagement/marriage? Generally I've felt that exclusivity and fidelity are what marriage is for. It could be my cultural background coming in, where there is no question to me that if you find someone you click with, you get married. But I realize marriage is not what people thought it was anymore. Also, there's the idea that instead of forcing fidelity through something like marriage, the desire for it should just come up naturally - it should be a feeling you get with the other person.]

  44. gunslingergregi permalink
    October 25, 2009 10:02 am

    wtf alias clio being converted to the unconditional side “almost”

  45. aliasclio permalink
    October 25, 2009 2:04 pm

    About fidelity, what changed your mind about looking at it as something before engagement/marriage? Generally I’ve felt that exclusivity and fidelity are what marriage is for. It could be my cultural background coming in, where there is no question to me that if you find someone you click with, you get married. But I realize marriage is not what people thought it was anymore.

    I don’t think I’ve changed my mind about anything, LSB, though I see that from the way I organized my comment, it might look that way. I thought and still think that exclusivity is for marriage. I was talking about being able to forgive infidelity, not overlook it altogether or make allowances for it as just one of those things that one has to accept about men, or marriage. If the infidelity were chronic, I would not accept it and would insist on a separation (rather than a divorce, which is forbidden in my own religion). Chronic infidelity in either sex is a sign that a person hasn’t really grasped the meaning of marriage.

    p.s. When I say “forgive” infidelity, I mean regard it as wrong but something to be forgiven – with an apology – and forgotten as fast as possible, not something to be permanently held over a spouse’s head like a weapon.

  46. October 25, 2009 3:34 pm

    some women will be OK as long as they know all about his extramarital activities, and some women may accept it will happen but would rather not know about it at all

    I think that’s what I’ve never understood about women. I don’t know how one would be willing to put up with an extra-marital affair, and I’m starting to suspect that it’s merely a coping mechanism for dealing with an alpha male. Maybe I’m looking at this from a male perspective, but I look at cheating as not only a threat to a marriage, but it’s an insult to the other partner, and it’s a sign of weakness and lack of self control. Why would somebody want to stay in relationship with somebody like that?

    I would not accept it and would insist on a separation

    Wouldn’t a seperation prohibit one from finding a new partner?

  47. collegeboy permalink
    October 25, 2009 4:03 pm

    Marilyn Monroe: the sexy Alpha Female with issues

    hah! you girls are funny.

    ALL women have issues. Alpha fem or not.

  48. October 25, 2009 6:56 pm

    If one half of a relation feels the need to cheat in the first (roughly) 5 to 7 years together then it could more easily destroy the relationship in my opinion. If a relationship naturally evolves in exploration and stimulation and becomes more “open” as years together progress into (roughly) a second decade then it is more understandable and possibly even more healthy for the relationship. Also, I wouldn’t qualify myself as an alpha female but have had qulaity men commit to me. Not sure of that definition of an alpha female.

  49. October 25, 2009 6:57 pm

    collegeboy:
    all PEOPLE have issues.

  50. October 26, 2009 10:48 am

    1. D.Hannah is from Chicago and was raised in a wealthy family; she went to all those schools, etc. etc., and has the ‘class’ credentials.

    Being an actress doesn’t automatically disquality you, see Grace Kelly or Audrey Hepburn or Katherine Hepburn.

  51. JerkDogg permalink
    October 27, 2009 3:14 am

    Wow I forgot how hot Jackie K was. She was really cute.

    I have no idea why JFK Jr. ended up with a woman that is not so great looking. While he was living in his dad’s shadows, he looked quite handsome and his dad himself was a shrub compared to Joe. Though he would have had trouble professionally getting beyond small-town insurance agent if not born a Kennedy – he was born a Kennedy. And everybody is touched by his life story.

    Carolyn Bessette had no particular noble pedigree or exceptional status of any kind. She’s only a 6 from the side and a 7.5 from the front. Most of the women who comment here are better looking and of probably equal to somewhat better status. If alive she could really be held as the ideal girl game master.

  52. Don't Ask, Don't Tell permalink
    October 28, 2009 11:38 am

    Jackie O an 8 !?!?!

    More like a 5 in terms of natural beauty (sans makeup and fashion).

    Angeline Jolie is an 8. Not Jackie.

    As far as first ladies go, Michelle and Hillary way outshine Jackie in the looks department. (not talking behaviour or mannerisms or fashion sense here, just the face).

    And this:

    “She was incredibly feminine. If you listen to her speak as First Lady, she had a very soft baby voice.”

    Infants are feminine?!?!

  53. November 4, 2009 5:26 am

    Oddly, I know a dude who boffed Jackie O. She pretty much ruined his life; she was a total alpha female, as this guy is a total alpha male. He could never quite describe what was so great about her, but she was definitely enthusiastic and engaged with her brief time with him.

  54. Food for Thought permalink
    February 12, 2011 1:33 pm

    One thing I’ve observed about this Alpha/Beta thing is that 2 of either probably won’t ever get along well. I know 2 women who happen to be roommates and co-workers. I always find it fascinating how the beta sacrifices herself and is always considering the needs to the alpha. Not to mention the amount of time spent together because of their circumstances. Since I’m friendly with both, I’ve been asked why I don’t hang around more but the reality is the dynamic is just uncomfortable after awhile. I don’t like cliques and personality wise I am mostly alpha myself.

    As for Jackie/Marilyn, I see Marilyn as possibly being a beta in terms of her relationships with other women. Yes, men wanted to screw her but I don’t think she had any particular command of other women. They were intimated by things beyond her control (i.e., her looks) however it wasn’t necessarily her assertiveness, independence, or demeanor.

    Jackie, on the other hand, could command a room full or men and women for different reasons. Just the fact that she didn’t carry herself as an open book draws people in.

    Also re: cheating, I think for someone like JFK sex was an addiction. There is no amount of bachelorhood or boredom that would drive a man to have sex the way they claim he did. And what I have never understood about these biographers/writers who churn out Kennedy books is why they repeat this “he really was in love with _____” and each writer fills that blank with a different name. It’s mating 101: men will say whatever to gain or keep a sexual conquest. So if he was telling 3 (and probably hundreds more) about his undying love for them, not his wife, then what does that say about how honest he was being? They focus too much on sex, when they all admit he & Jackie were a meeting of the minds.

  55. Sophie Marie permalink
    February 14, 2011 8:43 pm

    Did you actually read “What Would Jackie Do?” In that book the ‘dentist from New Jersey’ was NOT her pre-JFK paramour – that would be John Husted.

    The quote about the dentist was made regarding who she could or could not remarry. She said “I can’t very well marry a dentist from New Jersey”. Do your research.

  56. Sophie Marie permalink
    February 14, 2011 8:46 pm

    Also – Jackie did NOT divorce Ari. They were married (albeit unhappily) when he passed. Obviously, you didn’t read the book or do any research.

  57. Amnah Khan permalink
    November 13, 2011 10:59 am

    I don’t think that Jackie ever had an affair with Robert Kennedy. They were good friends from the start and due to their mutual loss, they grew closer, but all in a respectful way.

    Even more importantly, those who think that Marilyn Monroe turned to Robert F. Kennedy, they are all wrong. There are so many rumours to these stories that often it gets hard to find the truth, but after constant research one can get at it.

    There have also been reportedly Monroe tapes found in which she said that I can’t be with Robert Kennedy because he is not my type but I can’t say no to him, I will ask JFK to do so. Now, how far fetched this sounds like?

    The thing is, both JFK and RFK were never in love with Monroe, they never had an affair with her. Only JFK had two sexual encounters with Monroe and that was all. Those who murdered her were the same people who were opposed to JFK. Why can’t people make this simple link, that JFK and RFK have been trapped into this controversy by those who murdered Monroe.

    I think, we should dwell upon such gossips, they are nothing but a waste of time. You can disagree with these two politicians and criticise them for their policies and failures, but to blame them of something they had never done shows on our part too how low we are. I think, we as people should owe a little respect to them.

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  59. eve permalink
    April 22, 2012 2:53 am

    Marillyn-She’s a perfect example how a woman should NEVER look or behave. She obviously had a deep inferiority complex for being a woman, and turned herself into a sex object, thinking it would give her some kind of power. What a nonsense! Why she had not used her mind for something more usefull. And then the scandals with JFK and other things. She only degraded herself, nothing else.
    Jackie-In short sequences where you could hear Jackie’s real voice, it was very deep and sensual, I really don’t know why she needed that breathy voice afterwards. Also, when she spoke spanish, she spoke with her real voice. They asked a good question in the show. Like women back then were expected to sound like that.What’s the point to sound like you’re working for a local hot line agency? And i do believe she had lovers beside JFK, many stories confirm that.
    The big question- Which one of them was better in bed?

  60. eve permalink
    April 22, 2012 2:58 am

    Marillyn-She’s a perfect example how a woman should NEVER look or behave. She obviously had a deep inferiority complex for being a woman, and turned herself into a sex object, thinking it would give her some kind of power. What a nonsense! Why she had not used her mind for something more usefull. And then the scandals with JFK and other things. She only degraded herself, nothing else.She had too much make up on, her hair was died, and while she was natural, she was just an average girl
    Jackie-In short sequences where you could hear Jackie’s real voice, it was very deep and sensual, I really don’t know why she needed that breathy voice afterwards. Also, when she spoke spanish, she spoke with her real voice. They say like women back then were expected to sound like that.What’s the point to sound like you’re working for a local hot line agency? And i do believe she had lovers beside JFK, many stories confirm that.She dominated with the mind, not the body, that was her secret. And yes she was mysterious. She was far more beautiful with a curly hair, not a fascinating beauty, but intriguing.
    The big question- Which one of them was better in bed?

  61. July 6, 2012 12:44 pm

    Marilyn at least an 8 and Jackie “above average looking”??? We must not be seeing the same women. Marilyn did wear layers and layers of makeup (not to mention hairdye, pushup bras, girdles, etc) and was still at best average looking, and was ugly at worst. she was unrecognizable sans makeup. And her out of shape pear figure was not that appealing to say the least.

    Jackie however was an exotic beauty who needed no makeup. She was fit, slim, perky chested, nice legs- the works. Not to mention she was at least miles ahead of MM or most of those overrated “sex bombs”.

    Marilyn is so hideously overrated in all ways it’s sad, yet Jackie is the opposite. MM is glorified despite her self indulgent, self pitying ways and immoral lifestyle (and has somehow become the poster gal for fat women). You should pity her but to admire someone that immoral, fake and mentally unstable is not only crazy but shallow, just because you see them as “glamorous”.

  62. Willemn permalink
    January 9, 2013 2:25 am

    Jackie did not divorce Ari Onassis. They were married when he died on March 15, 1975. Jackie was a 10. Marilyn, in the end, died alone, haunted and addicted to barbiturates and booze. Jackie died surrounded by loving family and friends. She was absolutely an Alpha Female of the highest caliber: Independent, rich, beautiful, chic, supremely good taste, adored.

  63. enn permalink
    January 11, 2013 6:36 am

    There is sa suspicion that Marilyn died so young because she was actually killed. Yes she was a neurotic mess impossible to live with according to most people who knew her, a very troubled person, but one thing is for sure, she might have lived longer and maybe put her life to normal if she hadn’t gotten involved with the mafia.

  64. NEXTLOVER permalink
    June 7, 2013 1:30 am

    Here’s something. In one of my mother’s countless books about Jackie (obvs. a huge fan), there was a picture of Marilyn with a brunette wig that was supposed to resemble Jackie’s hair. The caption next to it said something like, “Marilyn pretending to be Jackie” or something like it.

    I find that kinda… odd. Marilyn had issue, superiority complexes, up the wazzoo. Like, she had to try to look like her “rival” in order to… be on par with her “rival” (Jackie). That’s what I took away from that photo.

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