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6 Reasons Why Every Girl Might Want to Try A Romance Novel

November 30, 2009

I’m a fan of the romance genre, but let us be clear: this doesn’t mean I’m a fan of every book in it. I expand on this at length here .

So, how might a romance novel improve your GirlGame?

1) It’s all about the love, baby.

The romance genre can also be called “chick porn”. I initially found this very offensive. I still think it’s an overt simplification some men use in order to understand things from a sexually-driven worldview. Porn, to me, implies real-life actors engaging in real-life cheap acts with no refinement, build up or meaning. Basically, making a comparison to porn is a totally different ballgame to me. Porn is about sex and nothing else. Do women really read romance novels, as a whole, solely for instant and obvious sexual excitement?

After having many dialogues about this, I understand the context for making the comparison better. An essential and prominent component of female sexuality is the social dynamic between a man and a woman, especially when initially forming their relationship. There is frustration, rejection and a great amount of emotion: all elements that feed women’s sexual desires. These elements do this without explicit sexual content. You engage with the man you’re with: you have drama, external or internal. You obsess about him and he becomes the centre of your existence. You love him. You sleep with him. These become inseparable in romance novels: love and sex are tied together, they happen together whether the characters themselves know it or not.

What a romance novel teaches you again and again is that love and adoration is what best gets you off in ways that’re the best sexually and also beyond sexual; this is what you should want to have and demonstrate to the person you’re with.

2) She’s like a virgin.

Invariably, the heroines are, in fact, virgins. If not, their hero is their first good sexual experience. I don’t think this is something only men find appealing; I think the importance of first and only appeals to women as well despite the difficulties in applying this, practically. Every woman is aware, or should be aware, of three things:

  • her standards climb after each man she is with.
  • the inconceivability of breaking a relationship off also decreases each time it happens.
  • the pool of men who will accept her for herself and be unthreatened by it in a longer relationship may grow smaller with the accumulation of experience.

Regardless, sexual attraction, and acting on it, is tied to love — don’t cheapen it and don’t make it harder for yourself by slutting it up.

3) Tingles without the steeples.

Explicit sexual content in these novels does vary. You have to go into romantica realm a lot of the time for content that isn’t boring in its nature. Although I will confess to tingling from romance novels and the hero/heroine exchanges (or just by virtue of the hero himself), its not unusual for me to skip or skim a sex scene itself depending on the writing.

In any case, it’s a good outlet for sexual exploration for the average woman in safety without the requirement for an actual male. You start getting an idea of what you like, an idea of what to do (I found out you can bite, lick, suck, nibble, have a pattern).

The problem with little sexual experience is that you’re competing in a market where there is overall a lot of it. Although passion and enthusiasm are required to form the real magic ingredients, you need to find little ways to compensate your lack of experience.

4) He’s like a… blank.

What particular exchanges or pairings attract you? What kind of man are you into? These novels allow light exploration and confirmation of this without going through endless ranks of different men.

5) It sends out subtler signals.

I like being professional and traditional, especially in university or work settings. However, I don’t bother hiding what I’m reading around my peers.  I’ve had male friends give me reconsidering looks and comments about this. It seems to generate just the right mix of signals, if you want to retain your modesty, but somehow say (without saying) that you’re not a frigid careerist prude. It’s certainly not my intention to invoke this reaction; it’s just what I’ve observed in many settings. Amidst your discussion, you may throw in how sappy you are. This presents the fait accompli if his normal impression of you is that you’re unapproachable, which would ordinarily prevent him thinking about you in that way.

6) You learn what not to do.

The people in a romance novel can be the most frustrating you’ve met, particularly the heroine. If you’re looking at it with the right frame — that is, what unnecessary idiotic actions delayed the happy ending here — then you can learn a lot about what not do. An example to illustrate might be my review on Josie Litton’s Come Back to Me.

Cautions:

1) False expectations about your man, the relationship and true love.

No, he does not like it when you’re being “feisty” (the true definition of “feisty” rhymes with witch). No, he cannot guarantee a vaginal O and both of you coming at the same time, every time. Yes, there will be morning breath. Yes, you do have to work to make it last. No, he will not always, always fall in love with you if you sleep with him. No, you do not know within five seconds whether you’re in love; you only know whether or not he repulses you.

2)You have to extrapolate what happens off the page.

You do not often get told how it works out after the romance, when there’s baby vomit, unpaid bills, the controlling mother-in-law or his drunk Uncle Harry telling you how lovely your eyes are.

3) Tingles reaching volcanic levels.

It often doesn’t ease your frustration about love and sex (although possibly giving the illusion short-term), it increases and fuels your desire for it. Thus, the religious view of “reading for sexual pleasure as sinful” is justifiable, I might add.

This is mostly a disadvantage if you’re trying to stay chaste. Otherwise, I’ve often heard women talk about the fun side effects for their partners.

Related:

  • Here’s a link to Harlequin’s free e-books; a not inconsiderable portion are not exactly the gems of the genre (Aside: Baby Bobanza and its cover are just laugh out loud hilarious. God, the writers must hate Harlequin’s marketing department).
  • Favourite authors of mine (who I’m hopelessly behind on):
    • Victoria Dahl who is hot no matter what century she’s writing about.
    • Meljean Brook who writes with intelligence and emotion that spans millenia.
    • Nalini Singh who writes powerful characters that are all about the teamwork; one interesting construction in her world which recurs in fantasies and paranormals is a contrast between uncontrolled, primitive emotion and overtly repressed emotion.
  • The “romance” (I’m assuming it ends happily, haven’t read the last book) that is dominating the public consciousness is Twilight. I like this comment on it showing how romance novels can elevate your game if read correctly. Hilariously, most of the mentions and obsessions about it have been the overanalyses in this corner of the blogosphere by men. I’m thinking this is valueless: at this point in its popularity, the movie itself is operating on preselection and can prove nothing. Secondly, the popularity of Twilight is indeed part of a fascination with the paranormal that seems to be intensifying. This isn’t unprecedented: a parallel can be drawn to the popularity of the Gothic genre, parodied in Austen’s Northanger Abbey who seemed to be repressively rolling her eyes at the trend.
129 Comments leave one →
  1. November 30, 2009 3:07 pm

    bhetti

    Invariably, the heroines are in fact actually virgins.

    girls have more focus in this regard and can write the most consistent fiction of any gender. It may not be the best all around fiction, but it is appealing to them

    Bhetti–
    Not necessarily related to what you’re saying but let me just say, women read more than men. Fiction is particularly dominated by women:

    Men account for only 20 percent of the fiction market, according to surveys conducted in the U.S., Canada and Britain.
    Why Women Read More than Men, npr.org

  2. Il Capo permalink
    November 30, 2009 4:39 pm

    I like the post. Have you been to the literotica site? It’s mostly male porn which happens to be non visual (i.e. written), but there are a few categories which cater more to women. It’s written by amateur authors. I’m not linking because it’s 18+, but you can google it. Click on the stories links, most the other links are commercial stuff.

    There’s only one part that I disagree with:

    …the pool of men who will accept her for herself and be unthreatened by it in a longer relationship may grow smaller with the accumulation of experience…

    The key word: “unthreatened”. I don’t think men are threatened by her past, in fact the few that should feel threatened are usually those who ignore that and pay for it.

    Bhetti–
    Good to know this post with your approval, Il ‘Corruptor’ Capo.

    I suppose you’re thinking of shaming language around the word ‘threatened’ (possibly ‘threatened by a strong, independent woman’). I don’t mean that the average man isn’t right to feel that he should be threatened. I do think a portion of men out there enjoy and exploit a woman with a certain amount of sexual experience, knowing how to handle her as well: it is true — however — that the same type of man wouldn’t be too likely to commit either.

  3. Derek permalink
    November 30, 2009 4:48 pm

    It’s not hard to understand the metaphor of porn. Within a romance novel you find a distillation of the elements which arouse female sexual/emotional (one in the same) desire. All the things that women find “hot”. As you put it: “the social dynamics between a man and a woman, especially when initially forming their relationship. There is frustration, rejection and a great amount of emotion: all elements that provide set ups to provide and feed desires for a woman that’re sexual and more than that. ”

    Well it’s a little more basic for men as I’d expect you to know. Porn movies are essentially the equivalent distillation of what men find hot: physically beautiful women, exposed flesh, lust, visually explicit eroticism, and a lack of emotion or other attached meaning. Men dont care about the drama or the story surrounding the relationship, which is why male porn makes little attempt at it. In fact some porn doesnt even make a token effort. However, you do see attempts to cater to specific male fantasies: movies which feature every combination of race, body type, and age for the women; every scenario from domination to threesomes, to voyeurism; every sexual position or act; and every possible fetish.

    In either case a man or woman is consuming a quick fix of that which we find sexually desirable.

    How is this hard to understand?
    Bhetti–
    I’ve explained I understood the basis for making the comparison now. Unless my memory fails me, I owe this to maurice, who is just indescribable awesomeness and a commenter in roissyville.

    As long as we are clear it is only metaphorical.

    The definition of pornography on wikipedia:

    Pornography or porn is the depiction of explicit sexual subject matter for the purposes of sexual excitement..

    Now a more specific quotation as to how it pertains to literary works:

    a kind of fictional writing composed so as to arouse sexual excitement in its readers, usually by the repeated and explicit description of sexual acts in abstraction from their emotional and other interpersonal contexts; also visual images having the same purpose. The distinction between pornography and literary eroticism is open to continued debate, but it is commonly accepted that eroticism treats sexuality within some fuller human and imaginative context, whereas pornographic writing tends to be narrowly functional and often physiologically improbable.
    – “pornography.” The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Literary Terms. Oxford University Press, 2001, 2004. Answers.com 01 Dec. 2009. http://www.answers.com/topic/pornography

  4. mongo permalink
    November 30, 2009 6:23 pm

    It’s funny how women so often try to present their pursuit of satisfaction as so much more refined than men’s. However much they might esteem their own tastes, they are still engaging the very same simple act: ‘I want. Give me’.

    Sophistry cannot hide the crudity.

    Bhetti–
    I am happy to concede that a movie containing scenes that are pornographic in nature with wonderful cinematography, a stirring soundtrack and a meaningful, smart or thoughtful script that caters to male fantasies is superior to a badly written romance novel. However, this isn’t the scenario on average, I am afraid. It’s also comparing sets that overlap.

    I do understand that the general trend of labelling anything feminine as superior to anything masculinity is part of misandrist trends. This doesn’t mean it isn’t true in some circumstances women have more ‘refined’ tastes whereas in other avenues, men may have more ‘refined’ tastes. Perhaps if we think about tastes in technology, for example.

    In terms of actual taste in the opposite sex, both genders can be sadly lacking with little to guide them these days apart from their crude sexuality.

  5. Obsidian permalink
    November 30, 2009 6:33 pm

    I find it very interesting that, thus far, the only commenters on this topic, are *Men*. Hmm.

    Also, I’ve given a brief Game-related breakdown of Twilight on my blog. Scroll back to earlier this month, where I school blogger OneSTDV in the ways of Women via Twilight…

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

    Bhetti–
    Firepower is a man?! I didn’t know that!!!!!!!!!!

  6. November 30, 2009 6:35 pm

    Men should read romance novels to get insight into women’s thinking. A woman reading a romance novel is only getting reaffirmation of her own mentality, which will not help her.

    Bhetti–
    If you have a hand and you do not have the brain software for using that hand, then you wouldn’t know how to use it, even though it is… your own hand. Also, if everyone has been telling you that if you put your hand into a fire, you will not get burned, you won’t find out until after you get burned that this is not true. This applies to — the most important example — recognising that being chaste is part of your own sexuality.

    That said, I have been saying for a long time that many of the principles of Game are present in romance novels. The problem again is this: men need to be taught what they are looking for or they will completely misinterpret.

  7. Obsidian permalink
    November 30, 2009 6:42 pm

    OneSTDV, “Twilight” & (No Understanding Of) GAME

    November 3, 2009 – 9:49 am
    Posted in Uncategorized
    Comments (47)

    You know, people stop me on the street and ask me, “Obsidian, why do you go so hard on that guy OneSTDV”? Why, I say? Because its so easy to do, that’s why. I mean, he’s the gift that just keeps on giving, and it’s a lot of fun, too.

    Take yesterday’s post from his site, where he laments the existence of the smash hit blockbuster movie, Twilight; as per usual, my comments will be interspersed throughout his missive:

    “Science

    Monday, November 2, 2009

    Vampires: Master PUAs

    So I decided to rent Twilight and see what the big deal is. For anyone not familiar with the current vampire trend, Twilight is about a high school girl in upstate Washington who falls in love with a vampire. Imagine The Notebook mixed with Dracula or just Buffy . The movie mainly revolves around the relationship between Bella and Edward, the vampire. Apparently, the author of the Twilight book series is a Mormon housewife. Yet rarely does such an accurate portrayal of the efficacy of Game arise in popular culture.

    OBS: Right off the bat, OneSTDV gives clear, first person and damning testimony that he doesn’t understand the creature that is Woman AT ALL. Twilight may be the latest wrinkle in the Vampire genre of books and movies, but by no means is it a new one. More to the point, yup, the author of the series of books is indeed a Mormon, and she, like every other Woman on the planet, has an intense sexual natue that guys like OneSTDV simply cannot or refuses to grasp. This is a universal thing, from Amish Love, to Thug Lit, to the Barbara Cartland novels a century ago, to The Story of O, you name it. YES, OneSTDV, books lik Twilight are to Women what Belladonna and Jenna Jameson are to us, OK? Its Porn, and it makes BIG money, as the box office numbers from Twilight clearly shows us.

    Now, I’ve never seen Twilight myself, and probably won’t because I really don’t have any reason to-but because I know and possess Game, and have studied and observed the creature known as Woman for a very long time, I can tell One that just about everything he saw in the flick is highly relevant in the seduction of a Woman, be it a highschool teeny bopper, or a dowdy Mormon mama in one of those throwback prairie dresses. The wiring’s all the same.

    (Back to One): I first noticed the hilariously multicultural cast. Bella’s best friends include two nondescript whites, a black guy, an Asian guy, and an ambiguously biracial girl. Again, the movie takes places in upstate Washington.

    OBS: Ahh, One, never one to miss an opportunity to satiate your racial animus, hmm? LOL. Of course, it simply cannot be possibility of Blacks living in upstate Washington, right? You do know that Asians have lived there for quite some time, right? And in any event, the very fact that you would bemoan something as unimportant as this, once again goes to show, that you fixate on things that completely takes you away from RELATING to someone else. As one who is so steeped in the intricacies of HBD, surely you’re aware of the tendency of such high IQ guys like yourself having trouble relating to others…especially females? Hmm?

    (OneSTDV): Edward, the main vampire, uses essentially every Game trick available.

    OBS: Ahh, the venom drips from One’s lips. Clearly, from what we can see here, OneSTDV dos have some base familiarity with Game, perhaps by way of the Mystery Method, but he fails to grasp its essence, hence he wouldn’t use words like “trick” and wouldn’t speak in such patronizing tones about the desires of Women and what TURNS THEM ON. Which isn’t nitpicky “critiques” of flicks like Twilight, for example. Hateration much?

    (One): He’s introduced as a mysterious individual with little known about him. In his first meeting with Bella, he can’t temper his physical revulsion towards her, an act that, of course, prompts Bella’s interest. After that initial meeting, Edward engages in the classic push-pull strategy of Game, where he shows genuine interest in her, even showcasing higher value and sarcastic negging during a class assignment. In the climactic moment of the first act, Edward saves Bella’s life by stopping a runaway car, then plays it off as if nothing happened.

    OBS: Let’s stop right there, because One’s said a mouthfull, surprise, surprise. First, yes, Women don’t like directness, unless in very rare situations. A good seduction is about the tease. It’s about the uncertainty, will it happen, can it happen, its not supposed to happen…which makes her want to happen even more. The Push-Pull strategy is all about one, NOT coming off as needy, which the vast majority of Men do, and two, creating more sexual tension, because unlike you or even me, One, Women NEED the rollercoaster high of their emotions going through extremes. The more you take a Woman through this, the more she will be attracted to you-SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO YOU, which is hugely important.

    As for DHV, and I’m pretty sure you know what that means, show me a Woman who’s turned on by an underling, and I’ll show you the Tooth Fairy. No Woman wants a Man beneath her, not even professional Dommes. It is important for the Man to show in some way, shape or form, that he has MORE value than she has. Edward, being “more” than Bella in every way, has done this…and she cannot help herself.

    His ability to stop a speeding car that’s about to make Bella roadkill is yet another demonstration of Ed’s showing DHV-then notice how he shrugs it off. It ain’t no thang.

    At that point, you could ring out Bella’s panties, she’s so sopping wet.

    (Back to One): He continues the push-pull method, rejecting her curiosity, then quickly displaying interest in what she thinks. He again saves her, but furnishes the mysterious image by skirting her questioning.

    OBS: YES. Never, ever, give straight answers to a Woman’s questions, is buzkill to her clitoris when you do. Turn every question into a question. I’ve said before that Game has wide uses, not just in terms of getting laid. Robert Greene talks extensively about this. When Ahmedinejad came to Columbia U to speak, notice how he handled every question tossed his way. And note the overall reception he received from the American public. Bollinger, the president of Columbia, was painted like the bad guy, and Ahmadinejad came off smooth as silk. My point, One? Don’t be Bollinger. Women don’t get hot for Bollinger.

    (Back to One): Of course, Bella becomes increasingly intrigued by this bipolar, standoffish, yet charming individual. She obsesses over her new friend and finally discovers the truth about him. Bella confronts him in a shadowy forest where the following scene plays out (paraphrasing):

    Edward: I want to taste your blood. I want to kill you. You’re like a drug to me. I’ve killed people.
    Bella: I don’t care. I’m not afraid. Then they laid down together in the grass looking up at the sky. I won’t continue as to avoid spoilers. The movie on the whole is quite boring. I don’t understand the hype.”

    OBS: No, OneSTDV, with your Aspbergy ways and need to “change” stuff, you wouldn’t. But the deal is, that Women are drawn to interesting guys, and one major way to maintain a Woman’s interest is to NOT TELL EVERYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF. Let her mind fill in the blanks.

    Second-Women LOVE danger, the sense of taboo. Remember, Women have to risk a great deal more to have sex than you or I or any other guy reading this does. Make the risk worthwhile, by presenting a compelling reason for her to drop her drawers for YOU. The sense on her part that you could, if necessary, rip another Man’s head off…even backhand her if she gets too outta pocket…is a HUGE, PRIMAL TURNON for Women. Don’t take my word for it, One-conduct one of your world famous studies on the matter. Read up on the Romance novels, which makes Billions of dollars a year, worldwide. Attend some of the conferences for Romance novel writers. Email, call and ask them questions, and report back all the results, complete with flowcharts, grids, graphs, coefficients and the like.

    One final point. You don’t need me to tell you that Women are far and away more drawn to the paranormal and supernatural than are Men, for the most part. The reasons for this are quite simple, and since you’re such a dashingly smart guy, OneSTDV, I’ll let you hazard a guess as to what that is.

    But I will say this: so long as you show open disdain for that aspect of what makes a Woman a Woman, not only will you never understand them, they will prove to be the bane of your existence all the days of your life, not just personally, but professionally and socially, too. Please see my post on Watson for more on this point.

    Now adjourn your Beaker ass.
    The Obsidian

    Bhetti–
    To summarise what I can comprehend in O’s points:
    1) Edward demonstrates Game in Twilight.
    2) OneSDTV is a newb.
    3) Anything else has been lost to me.
    O, I will not reply to you unless you are concise and keep it simple. Accuse us all of ADD if you wish, but I know for one that I simply can’t handle your speaking style above. If we want to go read your blog, we will go do that. I hope everyone else will please join me in this official protest.

  8. Doug1 permalink
    November 30, 2009 8:57 pm

    Bhetti–

    I can well understand why all these points are of importance and instructional to you, or were. However the point I wasn’t really aware of was this one, and it seems to be by far the most revelatory observation you’ve made about the genre, and when all is said and done, it’s standing as core hyper sexual chick erotica whether one wants to call it chick porn or not, is this:

    2) She’s like a virgin.

    Invariably, the heroines are in fact actually virgins. If not, their hero is their first real good sexual experience. I don’t think this is something only men find appealing; I think the importance of first and only appeals to women as well despite the difficulties in practically applying this. Every woman is aware or should be aware of three things:

    * her standards climb up after each man she is with.
    * the inconcievability of breaking a relationship off also decreases each time it happens.
    * the pool of men who will accept her for herself and be unthreatened by it in a longer relationship may grow smaller with the accumulation of experience.

    Regardless, sexual attraction and acting on it is tied to love, don’t cheapen it and don’t make it harder for yourself by slutting it up.

    This is damn interesting. It’s not imposed on women by men, obviously; it’s girl chosen in what they like in the genre.
    Bhetti–
    Beware the feminist near you, Doug, who will tell you it is due to patriarchal brainwashing. This point has been much debated in the sphere of the romance genre. There have been plot twists that have been utterly ridiculous to ensure virginity or lack of ability to satisfy herself and so on. A lack of experience in the heroine has a strong level of appeal. There’s a big push to make them more in line with the zeitgeist, especially as younger women move into the genre and the concept of chastity becomes more and more alien to women. That this hasn’t become alien to the genre yet despite both the experience of the everday woman and the strong reflections of feministic thought in areas such as legislation is very telling of what women actually like.

    I understand what you’re saying about the nature of what romance novels appeal to. However, just for some accuracy: erotica is its own subgenre in the romance genre, commonly called romantica. There is more sexual content appearing in romance novels as time progresses, which some audiences have complained about actually but I can’t say how widespread a sentiment that is. There are romance novels that are called sweet romances with specifically no sexual content or little. There are romances called Inspirational romances which are religious in nature.

  9. Doug1 permalink
    November 30, 2009 9:02 pm

    “The” Obsidian

    Now adjourn your Beaker ass.

    The Obsidian

    Fronting, peacocking, noise. Tired of the long on rhetoric and “authoritative” anecdotes, and your claiming to know all about black society. So much bs, “the” Obsidian.

  10. Doug1 permalink
    November 30, 2009 9:05 pm

    Obsidian–

    You know, people stop me on the street and ask me, “Obsidian, why do you go so hard on that guy OneSTDV”? Why, I say? Because its so easy to do, that’s why.

    Can anyone say full of himself blowhard?

  11. November 30, 2009 9:40 pm

    I’m going to admit something here… I’ve read a few romance novels. Yes! I have. The traditional obvious kinds along with the those old “Flowers in the Attic” weird kinds. Along with gothic novels which I think were precursors?

    Also, I love love love Bollywood movies with their sappiness of love and intesne passion to the point of death (note: the last 5 years Bollywood is becoming more like Hollywood, where people hookup first and then date others and stuff – see Love Aaj Kal, Jab We Met or Ajab Prem Ki Ghazab Kahani). In the same vein I like Spanish and Brazilian telenovelas more because they simply have more passion that Hollywood RomComs. Even songs in foreign languages, whether Arabic or Spanish or Hindi, are just more poetic and full of passion.

    So I understand fantasy fiction and pictures – whether romance novels or adult pics/videos – are controversial. People think they give unrealistic expectations or warp people’s minds.

    But I think a little bit of fantasy that’s larger than life can be perfectly healthy, as long as one balances that with generous exposure to real life. In real life, did I fall in love with someone when he heroically saved me from a burning building? No. But when he carried my injured self in his arms out of the club all those feelings of my hero came back.

    Any way, this is rambling but I think if you look at cultures with plenty of fantasy and passion with regard to love, you might find a lot more stability in terms of relationships too. Just a guess, not sure if there’s a direct link.

    Bhetti–
    I see you admit to your dirty little secret, you filthy whore.*

    That said, the amazing dysynchrony between the passion evident in Arab music and everyday Arab accepted behaviour and norms can be inexplicable.

    You do remind me I need to watch more Bollywood. Those are good times. Although I’m not particularly happy with this Hollywood trend. Hey, did you know there’s an Arab expression for when someone makes a drama, particularly out of nothing: “It’s become an Indian movie!” Sometimes, it’s also “It’s become an Egyptian movie!”

    Anyway, you touch on a pet peev of mine in terms of all mediums which is that anything in the media is poured into an empty vessel that is incapable of independent thought. This isn’t really true in a freedom of speech environment. We are inundated with so many conflicting messages that we are forced to think.
    *(Sorry, LSB, that was teasing you for using the word ‘admit’)

  12. November 30, 2009 9:44 pm

    Also, about Twilight… why does no one focus on the cool factors of the story where the vampire is a VEGETARIAN? He makes the conscious nobel choice to not hurt others even though he has the urge to? And then the whole issue about how he won’t age but she will, should she become a vampire too so she can be the same age with him forever?

    And also, what about the poor werewolf Jacob? The vampire’s rival? He’s a NATIVE AMERICAN. “Descended from wolves,” he said in the first movie.

    I think part of Twilight’s appeal, at least to me, is that it’s kind of cool and multicultural. I mean, werewolves as a Native American tribe with a legend of being descended from wolves… I think that’s pretty creative.

    I don’t get the focus some Gamesters have. They can say the Native American angle along with the angle of morality/ethics, and everlasting love (is it worth it becoming the undead for the person you love?) isn’t important. But it resonates with me.

    Bhetti –
    Well, there’s no doubt the fans see all the positives. The ones you’re thinking of: it’s definitely not in line with their agenda to say anything positive about it! That said, women themselves have expressed their own reservations independent of the “manosphere.”

  13. Keith permalink
    November 30, 2009 10:13 pm

    LSB brings up an interesting point on the Twilight thing. The authoress, a Mormon housewife, really hits all her marks. Not only is the vampire, like, rilly rilly hot and strong and predatory and all, but he’s also, like, rilly rilly sweet and he won’t like, hurt the girl.

    So Twilights hits the little girlies both ways. You have the ultra powerful hot dude hungering to devour the chickie, but then he’s also struggling to control his dark urges. There ain’t a dry seat in that movie theater.

    Would the erotic exist without sin?

  14. December 1, 2009 12:21 am

    Fronting, peacocking, noise. Tired of the long on rhetoric and “authoritative” anecdotes, and your claiming to know all about black society. So much bs, “the” Obsidian.

    Can anyone say full of himself blowhard?

    Doug1, here is all you need to know about Obsidian. He called me a white knight. Me, the guy who talks about sex bots, VR sex, artificial wombs, etc. Me, the guy who pissed off a gazillion women with one of pieces on the spearhead causing REAL white knight reactions from guys like John Scalzi and Brent Spiner.

    Most of what Obsidian says can be distilled into this quote from Office Space, “I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can’t you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?”

  15. anon permalink
    December 1, 2009 12:33 am

    Yeah, it’s the same shit like all those threads which devolved into race-baiting, etc., thanks to him.

    And he can’t even be bothered to contribute original content to the Spearhead, recycling his postings from his own blog.

    What a joke.

  16. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 12:37 am

    Ah. It’s so very interesting that several people here, have decided to ATTACK THE MAN, NOT THE ARGUMENT HE MAKES. I think they have a name for such a practice.

    But, lil ole me aside-is what I’ve said wrt Twilight, correct or not insofar as the topic of this thread is concerned? If so/not, why?

    Or, do my detractors want to admit right now, that in their feeble personal attacks, they have conceded the battle?

    ;)

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  17. December 1, 2009 12:45 am

    Gah, Twilight as romance, what is that? I was under the impression that the large majority (as opposed to the small majority, that’s right, Epoxy) of “Twi-hards” was between the ages of 11 and 14. Thus, I don’t really see how (super-deep) deconstruction of it is really all that relevant. Dude, when I was 13 I was madly in love with Nick Carter of the Backstreet Boys (and we all know how THAT turned out). SRSLY.

    No, he does not like it when you’re being “feisty”

    Heh.
    Bhetti–
    Definition of a romance novel:
    1. love story between two persons. (used to be a man and a woman until very recently, I believe. They may even be revising it to include threesome type situations but that probably will be years if ever.)
    2. A satisfying and optimistic ending. (used to be a ‘happy ending’ i.e. they are guaranteed to last forever and expected to be married until that didn’t suit the modern times.)
    Do in order for the whole of the Twilight series to be included, it must end like so. I need to read the last book, although I expect it shall.

    Romance-novel misuse of feisty as opposed to actual feistiness, let us be clear. His mileage may vary, but I would err on the side that doesn’t involve you… I don’t know… kicking him in the nuts. Like Josie Litton’s heroine did.

    Or breaking his Xbox into little pieces.

    Just sayin’

  18. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 12:58 am

    I’m with LSB on that I really like Bollywood movies because of the melodramatic romances. Romance for me, is full of tragedy.

    I got a Harlequin romance novel as a gag gift once, and I skipped to the “sex scene,” but it was moving way too slowly for me. I went to the European film festival these past few days, and some of those steamy love scenes got me um, super hot under the collar. It has more subtlety and mystery than just plain old pornography, and it’s also esconced in the storyline. Perfect compromise.

    Bhetti–
    Forgive me for asking: Is skipping to sex scenes a masculine kind of thinking? I think they’re pretty much valueless and outright embarrassing/boring on their own for your average mainstream romance novel (although that may’ve been getting better in recent trends) and I don’t find I can enjoy it unless caught up in the relationship between them.

  19. dadt permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:03 am

    ”Regardless, sexual attraction and acting on it is tied to love”

    ………….for whom exactly?

  20. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:50 am

    LilGrl,
    Please go back and check the stats: the Twlight series has wide appeal to both “tweens” and middleaged moms.

    So again-was what I said wrt Twlight in my comments/analysis above, spot on, or not, and why?

    Comments?

    The Obsidian

  21. December 1, 2009 1:53 am

    Sofia –

    Yeah, I always skip to the sex scenes. I also like porn, though…so yeah.

    Obsidian –

    I wasn’t responding to you, I was responding to Bhetti. But…while I’m at it…middle-aged moms…of “tweens”. They also liked Harry Potter. Man, moms of young kids like Dora the Explorer and Blue’s Clues. Are you seeing a pattern here? (Okay, I like Blue’s Clues too, but you get what I mean.)

    Anyway, I didn’t read your comment, and I don’t plan on doing so in the near future. But I’ll let you know if I get around to it.

  22. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 2:07 am

    I like porn too, but thought that would be too typical of me to say. Sometimes it’s good to have porn with a storyline though.

    Re: Twilight.

    To be honest, I’ve never read it or seen it or what not, but I think I know the general storyline through all this hype. I don’t think that appeals to me on a sexual level at all, nor does it outline any hidden fantasies. Basically, it reveals nothing about an adult woman’s sexual psyche. Tweens are emotionally under-developed and not in full awareness of their sexuality. They generally go with the status quo in developing expected crushes on what’s popular, like LILGRL’s crush on Nick Carter.

    Bhetti–
    Preselection! Could’ve possibly reached a tipping point where no woman is invulnerable now.

    Wasn’t it Efron victimised before? I want overanalyses of High School Musical.

  23. December 1, 2009 2:22 am

    Sofia –

    Exactly. I started reading one of the books and I saw the movie (with my brothers, no less), and it’s exactly the kind of thing I would loved before I hit puberty. Why? Because the characters are absurdly one-dimensional (as a tween, all I really cared about was: is he cute?) and the sex issue is discarded easily and early on (it’s not at all complicated). Like my crush on Nick Carter — I was totally fine with just thinking about this cute boy and not worrying about the complications sex and emotions would bring.

    Anyway. I’m not saying one can’t have a little party reading way too much into Twilight if one feels so inclined — I just feel such an endeavor is, at best, a waste of time. I mean, really, guys. Tweens like it because it’s a REALLY EASY love story. So easy! No complications! Mothers of tweens like it because (a) they are interested in the things their daughters like and (b) it’s a REALLY EASY love story. No complications! Woohoo! No sex! Woohoo! Why the hell not!

  24. December 1, 2009 2:27 am

    ‘The Obsidian’ – what the heck is that supposed to mean anywhoo? Gawd – you are irritating my friend, and no it’s not because you hit a nerve -it’s simply because you are annoying. Was that an ad hominem or whatever attack? Sure. Oh and sorry I didn’t read your novella either. The Aoefe.

    *I will likely regret the email after I press send because I hate beotchy behavior – but I’m tired and cranky and heck…I’m tired and cranky – when did a woman need another excuse anyway. ;)

    Bhetti–
    Let me just contrast this to how you are a saint and cute and kind to DA, bringing out the happy side of him. O must’ve really got on your nerves, even though you are normally so even-tempered. The only person who has ever marred your equilibrium has been Lady Raine.

    Only O is perhaps clueless as to ‘whassup with that?’

  25. December 1, 2009 2:30 am

    I agree with you LILGRL on Twilight. It appeals to me in the sense that it remind me of simpler days, back when I was just a kid. It reminds me about how simple and fun high school was (the age of the characters). It reminds me of the sorts of things I used to like back then. In that sense it is just about “Oooh cute boyss teehee is he looking at me too? OMG!”

    In the same sense I thought Harry Potter was fun too. Just a fun movie about cool kid stuff. Now, is Harry Potter a master Alpha with his “chosen one” status and mastery of the magic arts or something? Hm… don’t think so.

  26. December 1, 2009 2:32 am

    That is not to say there may be some women out there who read more deeply into Twilight. Middle aged women who have crushes on the characters… I think they are just in denial of being OLD. It’s part of a greater cultural thing with everyone being obsessed with being young, and wanting to make 40 the new 20 or something.

  27. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 4:06 am

    Now, is Harry Potter a master Alpha with his “chosen one” status and mastery of the magic arts or something?

    OH GOD, THIS MADE ME LOL SO HARD.

  28. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 5:47 am

    Lil Grl, Aoefe, Sofia,
    OK, so let me this straight-I write a post that directly deals with the subject matter of the post, and ask if I’m on target or not; LilGrl wants to take me to task, yet by her own admission doesn’t even know enough about Twilight to give an informed critique of what I said. Sofia cosigns. And Aoefe, taking up Doug1′s mantle, finds it more interesting to attack the way in which I refer to myself.

    Yea, I would say that I’ve pretty much hit a raw nerve.

    The real deal here is that I am more qualified to discuss these matters than the author, and most if not all her peers. Why? Well, aside from the fact that I come from a large family of Women, I also have extensive experience in dealing with Women in a multitude of contexts. Quite successfully, I might add. No disrespect to anyone here, but as commenter DADT said recently, most if not all the Women here aren’t even married or in an LTR of any long enough standing to give advice based on realworld experience. Most marriages in the USA hit the skids between five and ten years. I’ve had relationships exceed both time limits. Can anyone on the GG team assert same?

    That I am now being personally attacked, and not one of you has actually addressed the points I made about a hugely popular romance novels series turned movie franchise, on a thread explictly ABOUT romance novels, only strengthens my hand.

    Until I hear otherwise, I take the relative silence as to what I’ve said about Twilight to be tacit agreement.

    By all means, continue…

    ;)

    The Obsidian

  29. December 1, 2009 6:17 am

    LilGrl wants to take me to task, yet by her own admission doesn’t even know enough about Twilight to give an informed critique of what I said.

    Dude, I JUST SAID that I in fact DO NOT want to “take you to task”. I really don’t. I neither read your ridiculously long comment, nor do I plan to. I do not plan on addressing any of your points, assuming you have any. I’m sorry, but you’re barking up the wrong tree, here.

  30. December 1, 2009 6:28 am

    That I am now being personally attacked, and not one of you has actually addressed the points I made about a hugely popular romance novels series turned movie franchise, on a thread explictly ABOUT romance novels, only strengthens my hand.

    Ah, I realize you may have misunderstood me. My point above was that “to talk about Twilight as a romance novel of the sorts Bhetti is talking about is wrong”. I didn’t read your comment, and I’m not talking to you — I’m talking to any guys out there (and there are quite a few) who over-analyze the Twilight series in hopes of digging deeper into the psyche of women. Basically, what said guys are doing is the equivalent of us girls using a boy’s childhood obsession with, say, Spiderman or dinosaurs as a pathway into the minds of man. Not completely irrelevant, sure, but also not very useful.

    The Twilight series is popular among pre-pubescent and teenage girls, and people who are in direct contact with these girls (their mothers). It is not inanely popular among women between the ages of 18-35, which, presumably, are the women you boys are attempting to woo. It simply isn’t. That it speaks to teen girls says nothing other than that it speaks to innocent, sexually curious and/or confused adolescents who are, at best, a wild jumble of emotions and teen angst. Sure, you can over-analyze, but dude — most things resembling fairytale ya-ya romance are going to “speak” to this crowd. It’s not a hard one to please, and you only have to please one before all ten million of them jump on the bandwagon so enthusiastically that it falls over.

    Do you understand what I’m saying? That Edward is a schmexy vampire who glitters in the sunlight is all that matters. What? He’s aloof? Who the F– cares. What? He’s a dangerous badboy? 1) Not really, and 2) who the F– cares?! Trust me, there is nothing deeper to be read into the teen girl obsession with Twilight than “cute boys, love”. It’s not game. It’s cute boys. It’s not danger. It’s cute boys.

  31. December 1, 2009 6:30 am

    No disrespect to anyone here, but as commenter DADT said recently, most if not all the Women here aren’t even married or in an LTR of any long enough standing to give advice based on realworld experience. Most marriages in the USA hit the skids between five and ten years. I’ve had relationships exceed both time limits. Can anyone on the GG team assert same?

    Correct. None of us are in any sort of LTR of any significant standing. Not a one.

    I’m engaged, but you’re right: it’s practically a one-night stand compared to relationships of the Obsidian caliber.

    Also, check your sources (you don’t have any, I know, but that’s kind of a hint), at least one of us has been in a relationship exceeding 15 years (hint as to who it is: none of us has been in a relationship since we were five).

  32. December 1, 2009 10:35 am

    The Obsidian we aren’t writing The Married blog. We are writing a blog called Girl Game – every one of us is either in the dating world or just left it for a committed relationship. Despite your posts on me which feel sorry for me and claim I’ll be forever out of the ltr circle I’m pretty content being single. I’ve ‘been there, done that’ and made some errors which I feel qualifies me to say what not to do. If you want to write a better blog on Girl Game feel free, we don’t have a desire to stop you. However coming here to claim we have no clue is rude in my books and your style stops me from reading some of your comments. You make excellent points in comments I’ve read, it’s your approach which turns me off. Plus I think your comments are way too long no matter how well written, time is limited for me and I want to read everyone.

  33. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 11:32 am

    OK, several points.

    Let me address Aoefe first, since she at least actually tried to read what I’ve actually said (LilGrl):

    The point I was making in my recent post “Signs Of A Good Man” was to simply note that it is much harder for a Woman like yourself, whom I gave considerable praise, to find Mr. Right TODAY, than it was say, four decades ago. Elsewhere on my blogsite I go into extensive detail as why I think that is, but I don’t wana confuse anybody with the facts here. Btw, a hint-it’s in another post of mine that assesses the Twilight franchise.

    That you’re “completely cool” with being single, etc et al, is IRRELEVANT. Similarly, my or anyone else’s personal feelings are IRRELEVANT. So what. Has nothing to do with the central point I was making, and a defy any one here to honestly challenge it based on the evidence of our changing times. Have at it.

    LilGrl, I think we can safely say at this point that you’re not interested in actually discussing points made, but rather your feelings about the person making them. And I find it ironic that you would say what you did about Twilight, given that my comments addressed someone who basically had a view not that far off from your own. So, with that said, and again, keeping the topic of this thread in mind, let me say that you’re WRONG-the basic elements of romance lit is pretty much the same, same deal with Game, and hence why it works on the tween and the SAHM and any Woman in between. Its the same deal with porn for guys.
    You really do need to learn to get past your personal feelings and your apparent ADD.

    I’m just sayin.

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  34. Dreamer permalink
    December 1, 2009 11:50 am

    Obsidian- you’re right about the Twilight appeal. This movie has “game” written all over it, and certainly falls into the fantasy/romance subject matter. I saw the film and was blown away by the sadomasochistic undercurrents there. The woman may have wrote the book for tweens, but it has a subtle pull toward women everywhere, in the form of Bella, who are looking for a dominant, dangerous, and mysterious man.

  35. December 1, 2009 12:12 pm

    I love the Twilight phenomemon, and so I present y’all an little essay I read this morning that I enjoyed. (the last paragraph cracked me up, which caused one of my bosses to pop in and ask how work was going.)

    http://tigerbeatdown.com/?p=579

    Obsidian,

    1. Twilight =/ the romance genre that Bhetti is referring too. It is not actually relevant or on point.

    2. You’re not listening to what the ladies are trying to tell you, but then you willfully often refuse to see anything you don’t want to. btw, a hint, when people say it’s how you deliver the message it’s because of sentences like this one:

    Elsewhere on my blogsite I go into extensive detail as why I think that is, but I don’t wana confuse anybody with the facts here.

    In honor of your own style let me say: the only way any facts you produce could confuse me would be if they were buried in an incoherent self-congratulatory writing style lacking any articulation or cohesion… so, yeah, any “facts” you explain probably would be confusing.

  36. December 1, 2009 12:13 pm

    Obsidian –

    LilGrl, I think we can safely say at this point that you’re not interested in actually discussing points made

    Duh.

    See example 1:

    Anyway, I didn’t read your comment, and I don’t plan on doing so in the near future. But I’ll let you know if I get around to it.

    (–LIL)

  37. December 1, 2009 12:14 pm

    Although, I will admit that al has my basic point (which I was not presenting in response to you, Obsidian) down:

    Twilight =/ the romance genre that Bhetti is referring too. It is not actually relevant or on point.

  38. December 1, 2009 12:35 pm

    With that point (al’s) in mind, let me say that

    So, with that said, and again, keeping the topic of this thread in mind, let me say that you’re WRONG-the basic elements of romance lit is pretty much the same, same deal with Game, and hence why it works on the tween and the SAHM and any Woman in between.

    This was, in fact, not the point that I was arguing**, now, was it? Romance lit != Twilight. Nowhere did I say that the basic elements of romance lit did not coincide with game. Make some freakin’ connections here.

    **Nor was any point I was arguing “against” you, oh egotastic one.

  39. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 12:49 pm

    Ai (or is it AI/AL?),
    I find your remarks interesting in light of Dreamer’s comments, which seem to run completely counter to your own. And in any event, Twlight would by definition fit in with Bhetti’s theme of this thread. If you’re arguing that Twilight isn’t what Bhetti’s talking about, fair enough, but as Dreamer said, Game is clearly seen throughout the Romance genre regardless of the book title or ostensible subject matter. All I’m saying is that Twilight gives a very easy to see example of Game in action, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE AUTHOR, who happens to be a Woman-and this is true for the vast majority of romance novels.

    So…what’s the problem here? Don’t get stuck on Twilight stupid, here. The point is that Romance novels are excellent sources of Game and center on the same themes – in fact, what Bhetti’s talking above is actually seen in the Twilight franchise itself(!)-and simply goes to show that what Women find attractive is amazingly similar.

    Otherwise, Game wouldn’t exist, to say nothing of being so hugely successful.

    Oh, and LilGrl, clearly we can see, that Debating wasn’t your strong suit, eh? ;)

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  40. December 1, 2009 12:59 pm

    Obsidian, would you mind answering the following few questions:
    1. have you read Twilight?
    2. have you read the subsequent 3 books in the series?
    3. have you read any romance novels, in the modern sense, say by Harlequin or Signet or similar?
    4. have you read any of the literature romance novels, of the Bronte sisters or J.Austin variety?
    4. have you, at a minimum, watched the movie adaptations of either Twilight or one of the literature romance novels like Pride and Prejudice?

  41. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:19 pm

    Obsidian,

    Dude, you read Twilight and saw the movies??!

  42. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:24 pm

    Hi Ai,
    Replies below:

    AI: Obsidian, would you mind answering the following few questions:

    OBS: Sure! Fire away…

    1. have you read Twilight?

    OBS: Not yet.

    2. have you read the subsequent 3 books in the series?

    OBS: Not yet.

    3. have you read any romance novels, in the modern sense, say by Harlequin or Signet or similar?

    OBS: Yes.

    4. have you read any of the literature romance novels, of the Bronte sisters or J.Austin variety?

    OBS: Yes to both.

    5. have you, at a minimum, watched the movie adaptations of either Twilight or one of the literature romance novels like Pride and Prejudice?

    OBS: No to the former, but YES to the latter; Masterpiece Theatre, hosted by the late great Aleister Cook, was and remains one of my favorite pastimes.

    May I ask why you’re asking these questions? ;)

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  43. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:26 pm

    OBSIDIAN,

    LilGrl wants to take me to task, yet by her own admission doesn’t even know enough about Twilight to give an informed critique of what I said. Sofia cosigns.

    1. have you read Twilight?

    OBS: Not yet.

    THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.

  44. December 1, 2009 1:35 pm

    Obsidian–

    Clearly, recognizing when someone is or isn’t trying to debate you isn’t your strong suit, eh?

  45. December 1, 2009 1:37 pm

    (In true Obsidian-style, you should just take my “clearly”, assume I’m agreeing with you, and ignore the other petty wordses.)

  46. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:38 pm

    Sofia,
    As I’ve indicated to AI (and have said as much in the post I pasted frm my blog above, which no one here has seemed to actually read) I haven’t read the Twilight books or seen the movies beyond some clips. But in light of recent events I may spend some time on both.

    The point however, is that one need not necessarily be familiar with either in a chapter and verse sort of way, if one understands the overall genre of the artform and in this case, how Game applies.

    For example, do you need to see Spider-Man or Batman Begins in order to understand the comic book superhero genre? No-all you need to understand are the key elements common to just about ANY such film:

    A young Man experiences a major life-changing trauma in his life, which also brings with it some special talent or ability; he is then tested on his journey of becoming to use his powers for good or evil. Along the way, he is guided by a wiser, older mentor who acts not only as his confidant, but also as his conscience. The “trial by fire” ends when the young Man discovers his true path in life and that he has to use his powers for good.

    This is the common theme throughout ALL of the big blockbuster films of the comic book hero genre: Spider-Man is bitten by a genetically altered spider and loses Uncle Ben; Bruce Wayne witnesses the brutal slayings of his parents and, guided by Alfred, uses his grief and anger in his one-Man war on Gotham’s crime. Tony Stark is put onto his life’s path after being seriously wounded by his own weapons and after his own mentor, Yinsin, dies while helping him escape. Logan is emotionally and mentally scarred after undergoing Canadian gov’t experiments (which results in his receiving an Adamantium skeleton and claws) and which leaves him a wandering basketcase; it was Professor Charles Xavier who helped Logan better understand himself and his role in the wider world. Look at his evolution btw the first X-Men film, where he reluctantly joins the team, and the final X-Men movie, where he is LEADING it.

    My point is simply that, if you had studied the comic book hero genre as much as I’ve studied the romance novel genre, you too wouldn’t really need to see the movies to get the gist of the overall story arc. And that’s what I’m saying about Twilight.

    Again-please read my post on the matter above.

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  47. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:44 pm

    Obsidian just said:
    if one understands the overall genre of the artform and in this case, how Game applies.

    I said earlier:
    To be honest, I’ve never read it or seen it or what not, but I think I know the general storyline through all this hype.

    Then you dismissed me with:
    LilGrl wants to take me to task, yet by her own admission doesn’t even know enough about Twilight to give an informed critique of what I said. Sofia cosigns.

    Therefore you have no grounds to dismiss the rest of my claim, and I think LILGRL’s as well, about it being a stupid pre-tween novel that has no bearing on the adult female sexual-romantic psyche.

  48. Aldonza permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:51 pm

    Romance novels do to women what porn does to men. Sell them on the fantasy that rarely exists in life. For women, it’s the true alpha male who gives them what they crave in sexual excitement + solid commitment. For men, it’s the implausibly hot chick who gives it up to guys like Ron Jeremy.

  49. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 1:56 pm

    Actually Sofia, what I said to LilGrl is indeed valid, not based on my reading the book, but my analysis of it in the light of Game, which again, is easily seen in my post above.

    And Aldonza, while you do make a legit point about the versions of porn btw Men and Women, the fact remains that there is avery good reason why Ron Jeremy is the most successfuly Male Porn Star, well into his rotund and hirsute 50s. And the reasons ain’t what you think.

    I’m sure the astute ladies here at Girl Game will divine what that is. ;)

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

    PS: Sofia, please review my Comic Book Hero genre post.

  50. December 1, 2009 2:03 pm

    I was curious how much you had read the genre for two reasons Obsidian: 1. because you are presenting yourself as an expert and as someone who has great familiarity with them and 2. because you are male and most men do not enjoy reading those sorts of books, even those that are view as literature.

    Your analogy on comic book heroes fails for the following reason, imho: Twilight is not in the same genre as romance novels, that is, they are not all comic books. As I have stated.

    If you can make it through the Twilight series I will be impressed(shocked?). Also, if you’re willing, please share which romance authors you enjoy reading. Why would be also be awesome.

    (I’m genuinely curious.)

  51. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 2:15 pm

    All I have to say is that it was never clear that it was the Canadian government who were doing those experiments, and the Canadian government is the most passive, glorious entity and would never conduct such acts of inhumanity. That is all. Vive le Quebec. Or something.

    I can’t communicate with you because you don’t receive input. It doesn’t matter if you’ve analyzed Twilight through a prism of Game, because it’s a meaningless pre-tween book. I could analyze comic book heroes through an ontologolophenomenolocosmological prism and wouldn’t change ANYTHING.

  52. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 2:19 pm

    AI,
    Replies below:

    A: I was curious how much you had read the genre for two reasons Obsidian: 1. because you are presenting yourself as an expert and as someone who has great familiarity with them and 2. because you are male and most men do not enjoy reading those sorts of books, even those that are view as literature.

    OBS: Tru dat, on the second point, but Men who study Game know better. We constantly study the Ways of Women, and one of the easiest, yet most profound, is in reading what turns them on, which is for the most part, the same accross social strata and time.
    A: Your analogy on comic book heroes fails for the following reason, imho: Twilight is not in the same genre as romance novels, that is, they are not all comic books. As I have stated.

    OBS: How so? Please explain by way of a few examples? I can say right now, and even based on what Bhetti said above, that Twilight is a lot closer to the romance genre than you may think, and thus fitting my comic book analogy. I await your response.

    A: If you can make it through the Twilight series I will be impressed(shocked?). Also, if you’re willing, please share which romance authors you enjoy reading. Why would be also be awesome.

    OBS: No one in particular, whatever happens to catch my eye. I could be reading Cartland one day and Zane the next, but again, the core elements are all the same.

    As for “why”? Well, as a Man, I have a vested interest in figuring you Women out, LOL. Women don’t have such a strong corresponding drive to figure Men out.

    A: (I’m genuinely curious.)

    OBS: Curiousity is good.

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

    PS: Above I’ve written a mini-analysis in the light of Game on the Twilight movie. You say that it does not fit the romance novel genre. If that is so, you could please demonstrate by taking my post and showing why? Thanks.

  53. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 2:27 pm

    Actually Sofia, I do receive input; it was as a direct result of this exchange that I now have an interest in reading and viewing the Twilight books/films, which I’ll be doing very soon. If you actually knew me, you’d know that I’m something of a voracious reader and always like to learn new things-or confirm that which I already knew.;)

    At any rate, in the comic books, Logan/Wolverine is indeed a Canadian and was experimented on by the Canadian gov’t; in the films, it appears that he was in the USA military, but the experiments took place in Canada. Guilty either way, LOL.

    Again: Twilight cuts accross age groups of Women, Sofia. Simpl because YOU DON’T LIKE IT, doesn’t change the fact that MILLIONS OF WOMEN, REGARDLESS OF AGE, DO LIKE IT. Please learn to seperate your personal feelings and deal with the issues at hand.

    Again-I’ve written an analysis of Twilight in the light of Game and which does indeed fit the theme of this thread. If you disagree you can start by pointing out, specifically how I’m wrong? My post is up the thread a bit.

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  54. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 2:36 pm

    Obsidian,

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmblog/2008/nov/06/twilight-film-demographic

    girls and moms.

  55. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 2:49 pm

    Hi Sofia,
    Thanks for the link. I thought you’d be interested in this quote from the article you linked above:

    “According to a survey of 5000 by movie ticket website Fandango , 95% of the respondents were female and 42% of them were 25 or older. So why the interest from the more mature ladies? Well, never underestimate a tried and tested hero. According to author Meyer, vampire Cullen is based on Jane Eyre’s Rochester. Twilight walks a fine but lucrative line between teenage titillation and adult sensibility. Essentially it’s a classic love story but with acne and pale skin.”

    42% of ALL moviegoers to Twlight are aged 25 and older-you would fall into that demographic, would you not? And, presumably, most, if not ALL the rest of the Girl Game team?

    So, you were saying about how Twilight only appeals to “pre-tweens”…please, continue?

    ;)

    The Obsidian

  56. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 2:56 pm

    If you read the article thoroughly, it maintained that whilst it had a diverse audience, the bulk of it was still tweens and moms.

    42% of ALL moviegoers to Twlight are aged 25 and older-you would fall into that demographic, would you not? And, presumably, most, if not ALL the rest of the Girl Game team?

    LILGRL, Bhetti and I are all under 25. LSB is barely over 25 from my understanding. MOMS AND TWEENS.

    Also, even if this does extend beyond moms and tweens in a MEANINGFUL way that’s reflected statistically (which it isn’t), doesn’t prove that it’s a romance. Or even the kind of romance Bhetti is talking about in this post.

  57. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 3:01 pm

    OK Sofia, so what’s the big difference between the kinds of romance that Bhetti’s talking about, and that which Twilight is talking about? Are you saying that what I noted about Twilight in my post on the film above in the thread, is not applicable in any way insofar as Game is concerned, and if so, how? Please explain?

    Are you saying that Women who are older that say, 13, but younger than 25, are radically different in what sexually attracts them, than the other two groups of Women -those who are 13 and those who are older than 25? If so, please explain? I need clarification.

    Thanks.

    The Obsidian

  58. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 3:07 pm

    Also, Sofia, you do realize that 42% is a pretty high number, is it not? That is NOT “statistically insignificant”.

    I await your responses.

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  59. December 1, 2009 3:19 pm

    Oops, I also extrapolated romance novels and even Twilight into the greater idea of fantasies and their role (not to be confused with the Fantasy genre at the bookstore).

    About Twilight, I’m not quite sure what the broad appeal is either, but just to throw out my personal anecdotes:
    - Women I know who are fans, but not pretweens or mothers/aunts/cousins of pre-tweens, are usually NOT in a relationship. They are usually NOT the types of girls who have lots of GirlGame, and are in high demand. They are not the ones with big and busy social lives. (Those girls are usually too busy living the dream or something?)
    - The adult girls I know who went for the midnight screening the night it opened were all single, and dare I say, not what you’d call super-hot or maneater girls. (Note: I seriously debated going to the midnight screening just because I thought it’d be fun to see all the little girls scream at the cute boys – I love big movie events where people talk back to the screen too. But ultimately I decided getting my beauty sleep to look good for my real-life Edward/Jacob would be better lol.)
    - The super-hot and/or maneater girls I know who ARE into the movies are kind of childish and immature. They like kids stuff. Or, they are just into being trendy.
    - A lot of girls who are not teens or early 20s also like Glee, The Hills, the City, and Gossip Girl. This doesn’t mean those shows reveal deep truths about the female psyche either.
    - Some of the older women who excessively like stuff marketed at younger women (I’m talking about the older women who start online forums, etc.) are single mothers or seem to WISH they were young. Full stop. They are like the Sex and the City-philes in that they want an escape from reality – so they have greater issues and probably regret choices they made earlier? They have an unhealthy obsession with hypergamy when they should be focused on being a mom and wife?
    - I know many adult women and men who want to see New Moon because of the hype, but few who are obsessed over it. Again, I think it’s an interesting story and movies about being a kid/teen are fun – it reminds me of the good old simple days too, when falling in love seemed so easy, profound and amazing.

  60. December 1, 2009 3:25 pm

    Delicious.

    Brown Minority Girl-on-Obsidian
    hot action

    Society’s a-fappin!

  61. December 1, 2009 3:31 pm

    Also, Sofia, you do realize that 42% is a pretty high number, is it not? That is NOT “statistically insignificant”.

    If 20% of the world’s population is Chinese, and 80% is !Chinese, is 80% of the world white?

  62. December 1, 2009 3:33 pm

    Obsidian, I’m not going to read your long post for one basic reason: you’re a long-winded, meandering, poorly articulated (in a logical coherence sense) author. I am an impatient, efficient, short-termpered reader. Those two don’t match.

    Also, I’m unimpressed by arguments that are openly a compilation of someone else’s thoughts, especially when compiled by someone who chooses to be willfully blind to the validity of ideas that don’t comport with his already set notions.

    As a woman, writing this sounds like I’m being a terrible bitch and mean, but hey, you’re a man and men communicate frankly. So there you go.

    After you actually read the Twilight series (that should take less than two days as it’s written at an 8 year old level), and preferably after you’ve also spent some time in the horror, fantasy, fairy tale (redundant), and young adult genres , and you have developed your own thoughts which could arguably be original, then perhaps I’ll read your thoughts.

    But I probably won’t for two reasons:

    1. I don’t care that much.

    2. You have demonstrated that you believe there is only one exact way of doing or being something. Ex: You like women, so you engage in a systemic study of women’s interests and blah blah. I don’t, so I

    don’t have such a strong corresponding drive to figure Men out.

    I might do x,y, and z to figure men out, but because you would do a, b, and c, I simply don’t have the corresponding drive men do. You try to lock people into an arena or paradigm of your own devising, and I find often that arena to be false, self-congratulatory, and limited. I do not consider attempting a substantive discussion with you fruitful.

    PS- you might want to read the article I liked above. The woman author may provide some grist for your mill.

    PS2- I do appreciate that you refrain from resorting to attacking others via reference to sexual or violent imagery or words. That isn’t especially common, and I think it says something respectful. That doesn’t stop me from wishing you would dial down the patronizing ‘aw shucks little baby girl, let me school you’ tone though.

  63. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 1, 2009 3:39 pm

    OLDER 25 CAN MEAN A LOT OF THINGS. GOD. STATISTICS BECOME SO DUMB WHEN PEOPLE DON’T KNOW HOW TO INTERPRET THEM.

    The adult girls I know who went for the midnight screening the night it opened were all single, and dare I say, not what you’d call super-hot or maneater girls.

    Too true, LSB, too true…

  64. December 1, 2009 3:47 pm

    do hot, sparkly vampires manscape, or should we just be flippant and get the chest-wax?

    if 80% and 20% of the world are chinese, will that make all dentists insanely wealthy?

  65. Dreamer permalink
    December 1, 2009 3:56 pm

    lsb… your characterization of twilight fans is a little off. i am glad that you prefaced that with “girls i know.” if the fans are in the millions of women, well, they all have different characteristics which might not fit what you saw.

    i have to go with obsidian on this one… this series appeals to the basic desires of women in general. some may not choose to admit this.

  66. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 4:02 pm

    Hi AI,
    Replies below:

    A: Obsidian, I’m not going to read your long post for one basic reason: you’re a long-winded, meandering, poorly articulated (in a logical coherence sense) author. I am an impatient, efficient, short-termpered reader. Those two don’t match.

    OBS: Translation-I’m too lazy and emotionally charged to do the hard work of actually assessing what the author with whom I am at odds with is valid or not. That explains things very clearly.
    A: Also, I’m unimpressed by arguments that are openly a compilation of someone else’s thoughts, especially when compiled by someone who chooses to be willfully blind to the validity of ideas that don’t comport with his already set notions.

    OBS: Please translate into English…

    A: As a woman, writing this sounds like I’m being a terrible bitch and mean, but hey, you’re a man and men communicate frankly. So there you go.

    OBS: No offense taken. Projection much? ;)

    A: After you actually read the Twilight series (that should take less than two days as it’s written at an 8 year old level), and preferably after you’ve also spent some time in the horror, fantasy, fairy tale (redundant), and young adult genres , and you have developed your own thoughts which could arguably be original, then perhaps I’ll read your thoughts.

    OBS: Is it then necessary that I have to offer something “original” on these artforms in order for them to be valid? All I said, based on the analysis I did on Twlight earlier posted in this thread, was that Game was rife in it, and this is true within ALL Romance novels. Read your Greene.

    A: But I probably won’t for two reasons:

    A: 1. I don’t care that much.

    OBS: Then the entire exercise, insofar as you’re concerned, becomes at best, a moot point. Cool.

    A: 2. You have demonstrated that you believe there is only one exact way of doing or being something. Ex: You like women, so you engage in a systemic study of women’s interests and blah blah. I don’t, so I

    OBS: I never said anything about “systematic” or that “there’s only one way to do something”, you did. All I said, in response to a question YOU posed, was that I read Romance novels as one way to better understand Women. That’s. It.
    “don’t have such a strong corresponding drive to figure Men out.”

    A: I might do x,y, and z to figure men out, but because you would do a, b, and c, I simply don’t have the corresponding drive men do. You try to lock people into an arena or paradigm of your own devising, and I find often that arena to be false, self-congratulatory, and limited. I do not consider attempting a substantive discussion with you fruitful.

    OBS: Then aren’t you being contradictory by having such a discussion with me, right now?
    A: PS- you might want to read the article I liked above. The woman author may provide some grist for your mill.

    OBS: I’ll be sure to take it under advisement.

    A: PS2- I do appreciate that you refrain from resorting to attacking others via reference to sexual or violent imagery or words. That isn’t especially common, and I think it says something respectful. That doesn’t stop me from wishing you would dial down the patronizing ‘aw shucks little baby girl, let me school you’ tone though.

    OBS: Thanks, I think. When a Man is articulate he doesn’t need to resort to using foul language to express himself. I’m sure you get my point. As for your parting shot above, as I have no problem in the least with the way you choose to present yourself, I trust you’ll extend me the same courtesey.

    Thanks.

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  67. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 4:08 pm

    Dreamer said:
    “lsb… your characterization of twilight fans is a little off. i am glad that you prefaced that with “girls i know.” if the fans are in the millions of women, well, they all have different characteristics which might not fit what you saw.

    i have to go with obsidian on this one… this series appeals to the basic desires of women in general. some may not choose to admit this.”

    OBS: 50,000 Frenchmen cannot be wrong… ;)

    The Obsidian

  68. December 1, 2009 4:09 pm

    @Dreamer

    Good point, after I posted that comment I realized it seemed like I was calling the big Twilight (or any popular fantasy du jour) fans out to be loserettes.

    That’s def. not the case for all of them. Just in my limited social circle, the girls who made a big deal out of Twilight (as far as I know, some might be hiding it) are like what I described.

    Like I said, even I enjoyed the first movie (haven’t seen the second but I def. will soon).

    And I’ll admit that back when I was a religious recluse and didn’t even look at guys let alone respond to them, I was obsessed with a Brazilian telenovela which was pure fantasy. That little part of me still yearned for that big love stuff. I even got really excited watching Twilight, I almost missed my friend’s party because I was trying to finish it. :-) But I think it appealed to the still ungrown side of me more.

    One girl’s childish is another girl’s simple, one girl’s deep is another girl’s confusing.

  69. December 1, 2009 4:15 pm

    The Rainbow Girls finally regroup
    to pounce upon O
    in a multi-culti
    backstage smörgåsbord
    at a Chris Brown concert

  70. December 1, 2009 4:17 pm

    aaaand you either miss the point or are willfully blind to it. again.

    If you wish to write me off as too emotionally charged or lazy, feel free. I certainly agree there is some truth to this statement of yours

    always like to learn new things-or confirm that which I already knew.;)

    Unfortunately the other half of it reads as self-deception.

  71. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 4:17 pm

    LSB,
    You’re still not getting it, and this doesn’t surprise me in the least, given the nature of the venue: ALL WOMEN ARE ATTRACTED TO BASICALLY THE SAME THINGS. This is why Twilight can be so hugely successful, why the Romance novel business makes BILLIONS of dollars a year worlwide, and so on. If so many Women didn’t indentify with this, it would all be a flop.

    Game capitalizes on this for the user’s own ends, which may or may not be good. And the same can be said of the many things Women do to attract Men. Works both ways, although few guys would seriously try to argue that they’re special little unique snowflakes.

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  72. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 4:21 pm

    AI,
    Oh, I don’t deny that I do indeed know a lot and love letting everyone know it; but I also am not averse in any way toward learning about new things. Given my background and mileu, I would think its fair to say that I am far and away more openminded than my peers.

    :)

    The Obsidian

  73. December 1, 2009 4:26 pm

    and while I’m here:

    Please translate into English…

    You’re a immovable pedantic prig who hasn’t even read the books.

    You don’t have to have original thought, per se, but you should know of what you speak. Reading the books helps with this.

    PS- please check your dictionary for the difference between to demonstrate and to say, son. Perhaps then you might be able to understand what we’re saying. Isn’t being patronizing fun, and not the least bit problematic!

  74. December 1, 2009 4:27 pm

    Oh, I don’t deny that I do indeed know a lot

    HOW ARE YOU STILL MISSING THE POINT

  75. December 1, 2009 4:29 pm

    A: Obsidian, I’m not going to read your long post for one basic reason: you’re a long-winded, meandering, poorly articulated (in a logical coherence sense) author. I am an impatient, efficient, short-termpered reader. Those two don’t match.

    OBS: Translation-I’m too lazy and emotionally charged to do the hard work of actually assessing what the author with whom I am at odds with is valid or not. That explains things very clearly.

    By the way, this is the real translation (al can correct me if I’m wrong):

    “You’re a nonsensical waste of time. How do I say that tactfully? Um…I’m…impatient…”

  76. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 4:57 pm

    LilGrl, you do know that allowing yourself to devolve into Ad Hominem attack basically means that you have lost. Right?

    I do believe Ferdinand Bardamu has recently written about this character flaw in a goodly number of Women, btw, both at his blog In Mala Fide and at The Spearhead.

    AI: You’re a immovable pedantic prig who hasn’t even read the books .

    OBS: We shall not be moved…

    A: You don’t have to have original thought, per se, but you should know of what you speak. Reading the books helps with this.

    OBS: Yes, it helps, but as I pointed out to you and Sofia earlier via my comic book hero analogy, it is not absolutely necessary. That you find trouble with said analogy is not my problem; it is yours.

    A: PS- please check your dictionary for the difference between to demonstrate and to say, son. Perhaps then you might be able to understand what we’re saying. Isn’t being patronizing fun, and not the least bit problematic!

    OBS: It most certainly works for me. ;)

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  77. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 5:01 pm

    Also, ladies (Sofia, LSB, LilGrl, AI): please review what Dreamer’s been saying. Either she’s totally offbase, or you all are.

    Hmm…

    The Obsidian

  78. December 1, 2009 5:11 pm

    Obsidian,

    I will say it one more time:

    Never was I arguing with, against, or around you.

    My first comment on this thread was in response to Bhetti (I understand this is hard for you to comprehend, as I mentioned Twilight, and you also mentioned Twilight, and thus you probably assumed I was talking to you…but I wasn’t).

    In that first comment TO YOU, I quite clearly outlined that I would, in fact, NOT BE ADDRESSING YOUR POINTS, as I had not read them, and that I DID NOT PLAN (and still do not) on reading them. I then went on to discuss ANOTHER POINT which had, presumably, nothing to do with you, as I had not read your points.

  79. December 1, 2009 5:12 pm

    Also, ladies (Sofia, LSB, LilGrl, AI): please review what Dreamer’s been saying. Either she’s totally offbase, or you all are.

    I don’t see how this is an argument.

  80. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 5:35 pm

    LilGrl,
    No you wouldn’t, given your clear emotive and Ad Hominem-based stance; but the argument here is clear-Dreamer’s comments support my contention and analysis wrt Twilight and romance novels in general. You, and the other ladies mentioned, seem to take issue with this.

    The Obsidian

    [editor's note: translation reads -- "One woman disagreed with four other women, but because she agrees with me, she must be right. Yeah."]

  81. December 1, 2009 6:06 pm

    Really, Obsidian, what is your argument? It seems, to me, that your argument is (at best) that one person disagreed with four people, and so that one person is right.

  82. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 6:09 pm

    LilGrl,
    Really, my argument has been clearly laidout in this very thread, you’re just to bullheaded and stubborn to actually go and read it.

    On the other hand, from what I’ve read here, you seem to be a really great cook, so you can’t be all bad…

    The Obsidian

  83. Aldonza permalink
    December 1, 2009 6:13 pm

    And Aldonza, while you do make a legit point about the versions of porn btw Men and Women, the fact remains that there is avery good reason why Ron Jeremy is the most successfuly Male Porn Star, well into his rotund and hirsute 50s. And the reasons ain’t what you think.

    My guess would be that Ron is popular because he is such an “average joe” in all aspects, save one. I’d be interested in hearing your theory.

    Editors’ note: fixed.

  84. Aldonza permalink
    December 1, 2009 6:14 pm

    Ugh, you’d never guess I write code for a living. *hangs head in mock shame*

  85. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 6:19 pm

    Aldonza,
    You’re warm, but not quite on the mark. Please review Susan Faludi’s “Stiffed”. The answer you seek lay within.

    The Obsidian

  86. December 1, 2009 6:44 pm

    Really, my argument has been clearly laidout in this very thread, you’re just to bullheaded and stubborn to actually go and read it.

    You’re right — I was ambiguous. I meant, what is your argument here:

    Also, ladies (Sofia, LSB, LilGrl, AI): please review what Dreamer’s been saying. Either she’s totally offbase, or you all are.

    All you’re really doing there is…disproving yourself.

    Anyway, I’m not too “bullheaded and stubborn to read it”, I simply do not care what you have to say. Let it be clear: I am neither agreeing or disagreeing with you — in fact, I am not even arguing with you, as I don’t know (or care) what your argument is. It’s something about Twilight, that much I’ve gleaned from the comments I’ve read. I’m not arguing against you specifically — I made an argument about Twilight in response to the many males (that I’ve read) who’ve found the time to over-analyze the franchise. This does not include you, as I did not read whatever you wrote.

    Why is this, you may ask? Is it because you are so full of Truth that I am afraid I might be blinded by all the brutal honesty, were I to take a peek at it? Is it because you are SO FREAKING RIGHT that my poor, addled little brain cannot take all the RIGHTNESS?!

    No.

    It’s because you have consistently missed glaringly obvious points, you have refused to accept any sort of input, you have been willfully ignorant for no apparent reason, and you seem to have all the reading comprehension of a 5-year-old.

    Arguing with you — and trust me, I am not the only one who feels this way — is nothing more than an unchangeable script:

    Person: [Argument]
    You: [Counter-argument]
    Person: [Counter-counter argument]
    You: [Exact same argument you had before, without taking any of the points the counter-counter argument had into consideration]
    Person: [Tries to counter]
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: [Goes at it from another angle]
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: [Shows evidence]
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: [Tells anecdotal story]
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: Why am I doing this to myself?
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: I have better things to do with my life
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: I give up.
    You: I win.

    The reason I refuse to read your original post, and the reason I refuse to argue with you is not because you are so freaking RIGHT. It’s because you’ve proven yourself to be a lesser adversary than a brick wall, and, quite frankly, a brick wall is a bit more tolerable. I continue to respond to you (though I am aware that I probably shouldn’t), because I know that you will immediately perceive any lack of response as my acquiescence to your rightness.

    There is nothing in the rulebooks, however, that says I should continue to give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to debate every single time. You had your chance — many of us here and elsewhere have tried to have civil, well-reasoned debates with you. Many of us. For a very long time. As we have been consistently bombarded with your utter lack of respect and reading comprehension, however, we’re just sick of it.

    You wonder why some people are attacking you personally? Why they don’t respect your opinions in the way that they respect others’ opinions? It’s because you’ve had plenty of time to earn such respect, and you’ve failed. It’s because you make everyone into an opponent (whether they are arguing with you or not — hell, even when people agree with you, they are opponents), you beat them down with your immovability and refusal to discuss (rather, you simply repeat your point over…and over…and over…and over), and then when they finally give up or decide to go do something productive, you crow about how you’ve “won”.

    In this very thread, you’ve done just that:

    LIL: [Argument about Twilight, in response to Bhetti]
    Obsidian: [Why didn't you read my post before responding to me]
    LIL: [I didn't respond to you. I responded to Bhetti. I'm not going to read your post, and I'm not going to respond to you.]
    Obsidian: [You obviously didn't read my post.]
    LIL: [I...just said that? My comments are not really directed at you, but at others.]
    Obsidian: [You are obviously arguing with me.]
    LIL: [I am obviously not.]
    Obsidian: [Let's face it...you didn't read my post.]
    LIL: [NEWSFLASH!!! Of course I didn't read that. Did I not say that RIGHT THERE IN MY POST.]
    Obsidian: [I win.]
    LIL: [Win what?]
    Obsidian: [I win.]

    If you have not read this comment in its entirety, I understand. Simply say that, and I will not try to argue with you. After all, I will understand that you have not read this comment, and thus arguing with you would be like arguing with a brick wall…oh wait.

    If you have read this comment…

    Holla back!

    The LIL.

  87. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 7:52 pm

    LilGrl,
    I see my parting shot is starting to catch on.

    I also would say, based on the comments of quite a few, that not all of the readership or commentariot disagrees with me, either. So there. ;)

    What’s my point? That I find it utterly ridiculous for a group of folk, about half of which aren’t even 25, to take themselves seriously enough to dole out LTR advice? As you mite say, I mean, SRSLY. It’s laughable on its face.

    That’s really the nub of it for me. And I’ve said as much in a multitude of ways from Day One. That my comments are or are not respected, that I am or am not personally attacked, is irrelevant-the point is, that my youngest sister, who is married with kids and is roughly a decade older than you, is in more of a position to give advice to any Woman your age on the ways of Men and Relationships. Most of the other guys are being very polite. For obvious and not so obvious reasons. Me? I’m just keepin’ it real.

    What I said wrt Twilight is indeed accurate and correct, ask your Man, he’ll tell you, or for that matter, any other guy who hangs out here. Dreamer, a female member whom I do not know, also agreed. *shrugs*

    But I really bear no malice toward you or anyone else here, I don’t know you all like that. Just taking the chance to give voice to my views.

    Holla-well, you know the rest… ;)

    The Obsidian (stop bitin’ my stylee)

  88. Doug1 permalink
    December 1, 2009 8:03 pm

    LILGRL–

    You: [Exact same argument you had before, without taking any of the points the counter-counter argument had into consideration]
    Person: [Tries to counter]
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: [Goes at it from another angle]
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: [Shows evidence]
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: [Tells anecdotal story]
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: Why am I doing this to myself?
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: I have better things to do with my life
    You: [Repeat your original argument]
    Person: I give up.
    You: I win.

    ***
    Holla back!

    The LIL.

    Brilliant. Accurate. And hilarious.

  89. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 8:19 pm

    Hi Doug,
    So-is what I saoid wrt Twilight accurate in the light of Game-or not?

    What say you?

    The Obsidian

  90. Doug1 permalink
    December 1, 2009 8:36 pm

    Obsidian–

    So-is what I saoid wrt Twilight accurate in the light of Game-or not?

    That is a preposterous question. You haven’t seen or read any of the Twilight movies or books. Neither have I. Most of what I know about Romance novels as a totality I know through Bhetti, though I have read one or two of the Harlequin variety, but none at all recently.

    Further I no more read your “novella” comment laying out your theories than LIL did or Bhetti cared to respond to, for similar reasons. I just read the classic (for you) opening and closing few sentences.

    I try to avoid opining on things I don’t now much about, especially at length and with authority.

  91. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 8:39 pm

    Doug,
    Really? Coulda fooled me by the way you comment on Black folks. But I digress.

    My comments on Twilight were Game-based. In the light of that, and based on what I’ve said, the question is very simple, is what I said accurate or not?

    Anyway, like I said earlier, there are quite a few guys who bend over backwards to be polite. You of course, would be one. Not that this is a bad thing. But I have no such dog in the fight.

    The Obsidian

  92. Doug1 permalink
    December 1, 2009 10:26 pm

    Obsidian–

    Really? Coulda fooled me by the way you comment on Black folks. But I digress.

    Quote an example that you find objectionable based on my not knowing what I’m talking about. You rarely do that though, and never with me that I can recall. You do construct these paraphrasing dialogues, where you paraphrase your opponent to suit your argument.

  93. Obsidian permalink
    December 1, 2009 10:39 pm

    Hi Doug,
    As I recall, I believe it was I who requested that you do the same thing when you came up with stuff that I supposedly said outta wholecloth. If indeed I am guilty as charged, I had a good teacher. ;)

    Holla back

    The Obsidian

  94. December 1, 2009 11:03 pm

    You people behave next time. I will take a hard line, I tell you. Except with favouritism to Doug, who I shall blame for all this.

    He can do anything he wants. But y’all will please forgive me for that one.

  95. December 1, 2009 11:31 pm

    mu to doug1

    Doug,
    Really? Coulda fooled me by the way you comment on Black folks. But I digress

    *DEAD FAINT*

    *doug grumbles under his breath*

  96. December 1, 2009 11:39 pm

    Okay uncle mu, I’ll bite.

    Mu ALL WOMEN ARE ATTRACTED TO BASICALLY THE SAME THINGS. I would argue that women have more variety in what they are attracted too versus men.

    This is why Twilight can be so hugely successful,
    Well I haven’t read the books but Twilight’s major fan base is teenage girls from what I’ve read.

    why the Romance novel business makes BILLIONS of dollars a year worlwide, and so on. I am as voracious romance novel reader as bhetti. We can both agree that hero’s vary. Some women like hero’s who are scared, may-dec, blind hero’s, etc…. I found that some people have very peculiar tastes(forgive me miss exception to the rule) that are sometimes very off-putting to the mainstream.

    Btw bhetti, have you checked out any Charlotte Lamb or Lynn Graham?

    If so many Women didn’t indentify with this, it would all be a flop.

    So how come romantic comedians with beta male leads do well.

  97. December 1, 2009 11:42 pm

    chic: not yet. busybusy :(

  98. dadt permalink
    December 1, 2009 11:48 pm

    Haven’t read a romance novel since childhood. And I found them boring back then too.

  99. Mandy! XD permalink
    December 1, 2009 11:52 pm

    @Chic:

    My 26 year old cousin, who’s married, loves twilight.

    My best friend’s forty year old aunt loves twilight.

    Listen, it’s not just teenage girls.

  100. December 2, 2009 12:02 am

    @mandy!xd- I don’t deny that women of other age groups enjoy the movie but teenage girls is the largest fanbase right?

  101. Mandy! XD permalink
    December 2, 2009 12:14 am

    @chicnoir:

    I would guess so, but I think it’s pretty mixed. There are Twilight Moms.

    I’m guilty of having a New Moon door poster in my room, but that’s not because I’m a fan, I just think Taylor Lautner is BEAUTIFUL.

    Now I just need pictures of Steven Strait, Chace Crawford, Ben Barnes, and Chris Evans to complete my collection. *swoon*

    As for romance novels, I’m a huuuge fan of the cat/mouse game.

    This isn’t a novel, but it’s a clip from a movie based on a novel.

    Watch from 5:00-7:00.

    Gabriel. *swoon*

  102. Marcus Aureliette permalink
    December 2, 2009 1:13 am

    Crikey! The Romance genre can’t hold a candle to the drama in the comments section! I’m riveted.

    Well, let me kick off by saying that I’ve neither read nor seen any aspect of the “Twilight” universe beyond the TV commercials and probably won’t, so take everything I say on the subject with a grain of salt.

    Actually, all I really have is a question. Not even a question, more of a wonder: I wonder how much of the adult-female consumption of all things “Twilight” can be put down to simple nostalgia? That is to say, it’s possible that the popularity with older women is not so much indicative of women’s tastes being universal or consistent across time or generations, but rather indicative of them wanting to indulgently relive a particular time, i.e., their youth.

    Just an idle thought. As someone stated above, attempting to sift some kind of across-the-board insight into womankind from the “Twilight” fervour is probably not going to yield anything substantial.

  103. December 2, 2009 3:48 pm

    Taylor Lautner is BEAUTIFUL.

    Yeah, he’s hot.

    And 17. AGH.

  104. Mandy! XD permalink
    December 2, 2009 3:56 pm

    Steven Strait is an older version of Taylor Lautner. (sort of)

    If you google search Taylor Lautner a pic of Steven Strait comes up.

    http://www.glogster.com/media/2/3/32/25/3322585.jpg

  105. Obsidian permalink
    December 2, 2009 4:04 pm

    MA,
    I’ve written extensively about the Twilight issue as recentl as last month on my blog, and I clearly agreed with your position-the Twilight thing is so huge because for the young and older Women alike, they long to be COURTED. The courtship or mating dance, if you will, is VERY important to Women, on so many levels and in so many ways. The big problem though, as my essay noted, was that our current environment doesn’t support courting as we used to know it. Transient relationships, are now the NORM. Premarital sex is EXPECTED, and sooner, rather than later. And neither sex, is all that interested in investing themselves emotionally or otherwise. It all adds up to millions of Women spanning the ages, waiting in long lines of upwards to a week to see on film what they cannot have in real life.

    Again: the problem is rooted in the Four Sirens, which have drastically changed the dating/mating landscape. Until that is addressed, nothing will change, enmasse anyway.

    The Obsidian

  106. December 2, 2009 4:04 pm

    ah hmm.

    tayler lautner is pretty hot…for a 17 year old. that look on someone older is kind of…feminine. you know, the hairless pretty boy look…but still…i feel ya.

  107. Marcus Aureliette permalink
    December 2, 2009 4:52 pm

    But O, I didn’t say anything at all about courting. Perhaps I was not clear: I’m suggesting that some, or possibly most, of the draw for older women isn’t about what they are (or aren’t) getting now at all. It’s nostalgia for the ridiculous, unrealistic fantasies of young-girlhood, and for the innocence that had not yet learnt how unrealistic all that fantasising was.

    They can’t have it in real life because nobody could *ever* have it: it was never real!

    But hey, it’s only a theory.

  108. Obsidian permalink
    December 2, 2009 4:56 pm

    MA,
    Yea, I don’t disagree with you there. Definitely makes sense to me, and hence why the genre is referred to as “porn” for Women, in that it operates much in the same fantasy realm as porn does for Men.

    In any event, what can’t be denied now is that Women have a much harder time being courted today than back in the day. And that, in many ways, is sad.

    The Obsidian

  109. Marcus Aureliette permalink
    December 2, 2009 5:15 pm

    In some ways it’s sad, and in others, not so much. I’m not downplaying your point, but I refuse to regard it as a catastrophe, either. As an independent female living a modest, honourable life, I have an abundance of options available to me now that wouldn’t have been available to me back in courtin’ days, so it’s a trade-off. (I’m talking about stuff like being able to earn my own way, vote, own property and walk around without an escort, not unbridled sexual escapades.) I value my autonomy, and while it would be nice to have a companion to walk through the world with me, being alone (in the romantic sense) isn’t even remotely the worst fate that can befall a person.

    But this is entirely off-topic.

  110. December 2, 2009 6:43 pm

    Only TWO words
    strike fear in
    Taylor Lautner:

    Richard Grieco

  111. Obsidian permalink
    December 2, 2009 7:08 pm

    MA,
    I don’t have any problem in the least with what you just said. It’s just that, as you well know, a goodly number of Women struggle with these things. It’s good to know that you’re quite clearheaded about all that.

    The Obsidian

  112. December 2, 2009 7:11 pm

    mandyxd and lilgrl, Taylor Lautner is hot. I feel so guilty for lusting after a 17 year old. I feel like the female ganon/agnostic.
    *shuders*

    I though he was at least 21.

  113. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 2, 2009 7:13 pm

    Taylor Lautner looks like he’s 12, you pervs!

  114. December 2, 2009 7:16 pm

    nah, he looks like he’s 17. which is still…troubling…

  115. Mandy! XD permalink
    December 2, 2009 7:21 pm

    Is Richard Grieco supposed to be attractive? :/

  116. Mandy! XD permalink
    December 2, 2009 7:21 pm

    Sofia, Taylor Lautner is beautiful. Accept it.

  117. December 2, 2009 7:27 pm

    Mandy! XD

    Is Richard Grieco supposed to be attractive? :/

    just bc he’s old enough
    to be your grandpappy
    doesn’t mean he wasn’t once hot enuff
    2b the next big thing.

    kids today…

  118. СОФИЯ/sofia permalink
    December 2, 2009 7:36 pm

    If I could be with any male celebrity it would be Vlady Putin.

  119. Mandy! XD permalink
    December 2, 2009 7:54 pm

    @Sofia:

    Paleophile.

    @Firepower:

    Father time marched across his face. :(

    Or stomped across it rather.

  120. December 2, 2009 8:48 pm

    sofia, look at that face and body… check out his aura… he gives off a ” I give good times ladies” vibe.

  121. D(esi)ADT permalink
    December 2, 2009 11:01 pm

    ” I feel so guilty for lusting after a 17 year old. ”

    Why? 17 is the age of consent in many states.

    He kind of resembles my first husband, ironically enough.

  122. December 3, 2009 2:23 am

    the fact remains that there is avery good reason why Ron Jeremy is the most successfuly Male Porn Star, well into his rotund and hirsute 50s. And the reasons ain’t what you think.

    OMG – he’s a vampire?! Hawt.

  123. Aldonza permalink
    December 3, 2009 9:29 am

    OMG – he’s a vampire?! Hawt.

    LMAO! I did actually look into the reviews and I’m still not sure how an unattractive guy like Ron Jeremy fits into the theory of men not knowing how to be masculine anymore.

    So I’m with aoefe. The vampire theory works for me.

  124. theobsidianfiles permalink
    December 3, 2009 12:34 pm

    Aldonza & Aoefe,
    Please read the book “Stiffed” by Susan Faludi. She explains everything you need to know as to why Ron Jeremy continues to be highly successful in the Pornworld, and it ain’t quite for the reasons you think.

    The Obsidian

  125. December 3, 2009 12:44 pm

    Obsidian

    there is avery good reason why Ron Jeremy is the most successfuly Male Porn Star, well into his rotund and hirsute 50s. And the reasons ain’t what you think.

    his New! LoveSystems! Seminars?

  126. Mandy! XD permalink
    December 3, 2009 1:02 pm

    @Obsidian:

    I love it.

    If a man has to explain to another woman why an old guy is succesful in the porn industry…

  127. December 3, 2009 2:57 pm

    СОФИЯ/sofia

    If I could be with any male celebrity it would be Vlady Putin.

    your amazing, cuz if Putin could be with any male celeb, it’d be with Putin too

  128. Mandy! XD permalink
    December 3, 2009 3:37 pm

    I love Firepower.

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